Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => NARCISSUS => Topic started by: JimF on December 13, 2014, 12:39:25 AM
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From Snowdrops November 2014 Maggi Young wrote:
The N. 'Cedric Morris' are sterile flowers, of course, so even when the ovary swells enthusiastically, making one think that lots of seed is being made, the flowers continue to look good and, in the end, there is never any fertile seed.
Others have made similar comments. My experience is that N. 'Cedric Morris' is not completely sterile as a seed parent, just fussy about the pollen it will accept. I self pollinated it, but lost the seedlings in their 2nd year. The best success so far is with 'Rynveld's Early Sensation'.
I grow 'Cedric Morris' in pots while 'Rynveld's Early Sensation' grows in a garden 4 miles away - from where I brought home pollen, so I know I haven't mixed up the parentage. A cross on one flower in March of 2010 produced three seedlings, which I thought dead after this summer's record heat. Today I discovered 2 noses emerging in the seed pot! (Never throw away a seed pot!) One is very thin like 'CM'; the other very thick like 'RES'. I await the third. I don't expect flowers this year.
According to daffseek.org 'Cedric Morris' is a "pollen fertile", reporting Malcolm S. Bradbury of England registering 'Izzy' in 2013 reportedly from the reverse of my cross: 'Cedric Morris' pollen on 'Rynveld's Early Sensation'. Surely others have tried and had success with 'Cedric Morris'? Clearly it is not completely infertile as seed or pollen parent, suggesting many good possibilities.
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I have 1 and 2 year old seedlings of Rijnveldt Early Sensation X Cedric Morris, but have never had seeds of Cedric Morris.
Poul
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I have also tried crossing CM with different hoop petticoats and have 1 year old seedlings, but I am not sure if the cross is successful or if it is self pollination. There could be a chance that I have a serotinus X Cedric Morris cross. The pot is marked N. serotinus, but the seedlings doesn't look like serotinus. They are 3 years old, the leaves are much broader than serotinus and the bulbs quite big. I will keep you informed when they flower next year (hopefully) .
Poul
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I have 1 and 2 year old seedlings of Rijnveldt Early Sensation X Cedric Morris, but have never had seeds of Cedric Morris.
Poul
Me too. One flowered recently, and more in bud.
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One is always hopeful when one makes such a statement that it will encourage others to share their experiences. Good to know, too that it is not only the 'drop fiends who read those pages! ;D
We have never had fertile seed - or even anything resembling any kind of seed - from the sometimes very fat and promising looking seedpods. We haven't had seed from any attempted crosses with the pollen, either.
Good to hear that others may be being more successful. It will be interesting to see the resultant progeny.
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Knowing little about daffodils, I have occasionally bemoaned the lack of an autumn-flowering one that was hardy enough to be grown outdoors. Imagine my surprise to find that I was growing one when my 'Cedric Morris' flowered for the first time on 21st November this year. I had acquired it two years ago at a 'swap-meet' primarily focussed on snowdrops, had not seen it flower hitherto nor appreciated quite what a little marvel I had. Since I'm still drawn to the idea of hardy autumn-flowering daffodils I hope that's what attempts to cross-breed 'Cedric Morris' will produce.
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All my 'Cedric Morris' have died out over the last few years :'(. I had them out in the garden and in plunged pots in the green house.
Looking at my photo records 2010 was the last time I took a photo of it
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Mark: Same thing here. They seem to be susceptible to just about everything. Jim I suppose selfing can go either way, usually badly. Nevertheless a good idea and worth a try again.
johnw
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Very clever you, Maggi. I was taught that trick, too. It does work very well indeed.
Interesting to read people reporting successes with 'Cedric Morris' as a pollen parent.
My goal crossing these two earlies - and others - is the same as Alan's hope: create more late autumn and early winter flowering daffodils. 'Cedric Morris' can hold flowers here from mid-November into early March: 3.5 months.
Rynvelds' Early Sensation' often starts New Year's Eve and holds a several flowers through to March 21st, nearly 3 months. That's value!
I plan to put pollen of 'Jana', 'Cecil Nice', 'Cedric Morris', and 'Rynveld's Early Sensation' on each other this winter, storing pollen if any one of them fades before another opens. Many times it has taken only one seedling of an obstinate cross to produce a breakthrough in breeding, Rosa x Kordesii being a brilliant example. Let's hope 'Cedric Morris' the daffodil influences as much change as Cedric Morris the artist did.
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Me too. One flowered recently, and more in bud.
Who do they look like, Anne? And is bloom time closer to one parent or midway?
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Mark, John, mine died out too, after being imported in 1993 from Beth Chatto. Needless to say we can't get it again though someone still may have it in NZ. It did well for maybe 5 years then gradually went back, not tolerating either a dry soil or the presence of any weeds near it.
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Another use of 'Cedric Morris' as seed parent:
In his obituary for Simon Savage - the 2013 "Narcissus., Snowdrop and Tulip Yearbook", pg 80 - Matt Bishop writes that Simon had crossed N. 'Cedric Morris' (seed) with N. 'Dawn Chorus' (pollen), the first seedlings flowering in Oct. 2005 which "amazed a group of us with their size, shape and substance." He mentions ongoing evaluation of 3 of the seedlings.
'Dawn Chorus' is a seedling of 'Rijnveld's Early Sensation' and N. asturiensis. This cross makes sense since 'Cedric Morris' is a tetraploid form of N. asturiensis ssp. vilarvildensis.
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Mark, John, mine died out too. . . .not tolerating either a dry soil or the presence of any weeds near it.
I agree, Lesley. As I recall, it was found in mountainous, grassy areas that didn't dry out. I keep mine in a pot, moist until dormant, when it goes into a cool garage built into a hillside, with an occasional bit of water. Friends here have succeeded in the ground, planting it on the shady north side of deciduous shrubs with clumping epimediums and similar quiet neighbors, all providing shade to the ground.
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According to daffseek.org 'Cedric Morris' is a "pollen fertile", reporting Malcolm S. Bradbury of England registering 'Izzy' in 2013 reportedly from the reverse of my cross: 'Cedric Morris' pollen on 'Rynveld's Early Sensation'. Surely others have tried and had success with 'Cedric Morris'? Clearly it is not completely infertile as seed or pollen parent, suggesting many good possibilities.
So as Cedric Morris is a tetraploid it should be used as the pollen parent on triploids and diploids or only triploids and obviously other fertile tetraploids? Then can one assume any seed from Cedric himself could only have been fathered by another fertile tetraploid? If that be the case can you guess what the possible father was in your garden - i.e. from the CM o.p. seed?
johnw - at last some frost tonight to hopefully set things straight.
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So as Cedric Morris is a tetraploid it should be used as the pollen parent on triploids and diploids or only triploids and obviously other fertile tetraploids? Then can one assume any seed from Cedric himself could only have been fathered by another fertile tetraploid? If that be the case can you guess what the possible father was in your garden - i.e. from the CM o.p. seed?
Others may be able to answer your first question better, John, but as I understand it 'Cedric Morris' could be used as pollen parent on diploids and tetraploids.
If it can only produce seed from pollination with a fertile tetraploid, then 'Rijnveld's Early Sensation' must be one - something I've not been able to document.
As 'Cedric Morris' blooms for such a long time, I don't know who fathered the first set of seeds. There were several species and hybrids in bloom and close together those three months - and lots of insect activity. I honestly didn't expect any seed from the inflated seed pods, but always check. Finding the first o.p. seed encouraged me to try hybridizing the following year.
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Quoting some discussion from the PBS lists -
Quoting Mark BROWN:
Dear All,
I was wondering if anyone has done any hybridising using Narcissus
minor 'Cedric Morris'.
Or if anyone know someone who has other than Simon Savage?
He used 'Rijnveld's Early Sensation' as the other parent.
Both grow very well here. I would love to try some of the offspring one day.
Or even do some hybridising if anyone has any advice?
Kind regards,
Mark.
76119 Sainte Marguerite-sur-mer,
France.
Narcissus minor 'Cedric Morris'
Quoting John Grimshaw (Sun, 04 Jan 2015 02:52:21 PST)
I am growing on a number of seedlings of the cross 'Cedric Morris' x
'Rijnveldt's Early Sensation', made by Malcolm Bradbury, a well-known
daffodil enthusiast and editor of the RHS. Daffodils, Tulips and
Snowdrops Yearbook. I think he has retained some selections, mine are
'the rest' and are planted out at the Yorkshire Arboretum. They vary
quite a lot in size, earliness and charm, with just one in flower now
that resembles a larger 'Cedric Morris'. They need observation for a
few years ( this will be their 2nd season flowering here), but there's
no doubt that this cross will give nice early flowering progeny.
John Grimshaw
Quoting Mark BROWN <brown.mark@wanadoo.fr>:
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;D
Hi
Anne, you have a lot of Cedric Morris in your hybrids if you have been using our highly fertile Papa Snoz for hybridising. We have a lot of Cedric Morris in our hybrids because we have used Papa Snoz for hybridising and we have some excellent Cedric Morris seedlings from Glenbrook Bulb Farm that we are also using for hybridising. Papa Snoz is highly fertile both ways. My Cedric Morris died a long time ago but I suspect GBF still has it growing and it is obviously being used for hybridising. I regard the GBF hybrids as some of the best breeding material available because of the petal coverage.
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That's a nice looking one!