Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => NARCISSUS => Topic started by: Anthony Darby on May 09, 2015, 06:21:09 AM
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This pot is confusing me. It is from seed sown four years ago and is supposed to be Narcissus serotinus, but I thought, in this species, each bulb produced one leaf or one flower stalk, not several leaves. It has yet to flower.
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Hi Anthony,
Possibly it was Narcissus bulbocodium ssp. serotinus?
cheers
fermi
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Will check. Just realised this should have started a May Narcissus thread?
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Will check. Just realised this should have started a May Narcissus thread?
Uh- huh
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Some late Narcissus bulbocodium which failed to get repotted last year.
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They don't seem to have minded!
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They don't seem to have minded!
Indeed - best not treat it as the way forward though!
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Just received some seeds ex "Craigton Chorister". Looking forward to seeing how they grow. Thanks Matt. 8)
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Hope they will soon be singing along with you, Anthony!! :D ;D
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Yes, it was nice of Matt to have a Chorister surplus. I'm frilled. ;D
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Yes, it was nice of Matt to have a Chorister surplus. I'm frilled. ;D
A surplice? ;)
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A surplice? ;)
;D ;D ;D
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I grew lots of 'new to me' narcissus and daffodil bulbs over the winter in hope of having a pot suitable to enter in the Edinburgh show. Here are some which have been flowering this month, well but too late.
Narcissus Winston Churchill
N. Vanilla Peach
N. Ice King
N. Double Smiles
13.5.15 N. Prom Dance
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Fingers crossed for a better timed season next year, eh? Frustrating for you, but a grand display.
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Almost last to flower (buds have still to open on the double Narcissus poeticus)
Narcissus 'Baby Moon' seedlings from Brian Duncan via Anne Wright. They were first to show leaves (in November :o) and last to flower apart from the poeticus. Sorry about the quality. My camera does not seem to cope with yellow.
Narcissus poeticus ssp. recurvus
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Fingers crossed for a better timed season next year, eh? Frustrating for you, but a grand display.
Thank you Maggie. I need to do some more reading on how to plant a pot of daffs for a show. I don't normally grow any in pots and was uncertain about the number of bulbs req'd to give a decent potful which are all open at the same time (hopefully show day) and all the same height. Considering how easy they are to grow in the garden it is a surprise to find there is quite a lot of skill to reach exhibition standard. I have learned a little and enjoyed a lot so I'm not complaining.
Roma I was interested to see the N. poeticus ssp. recurvus. Its a lovely crisp flower. I have planted some seeds of that. Have you any idea how long it takes from seeds to flowering size?
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Yes, it was nice of Matt to have a Chorister surplus. I'm frilled. ;D
No puns from me, just hope they grow ok and some of the babies are as beautiful as the mother.
This has generally been a disappointing year for seed all round. :( I only got seed off 3 Narcissus and about the same for the Crocus. The autumn was dreadful, so only the earliest flowerers set seed. Although a late N.obesus has seed pods swelling. Just a small donation for the SeedEx. this year.
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Some more narcissus in my garden (in pots).
Sun Disc which has a white mucro on the petals like Golden Ducat
Golden Ducat.
Little Witch x 2
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and more narcissus still flowering
N. Thalia
N. Salome
N.Pipit
N.Blushing Lady
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N. Double Smiles is a firm favourite of mine here is a better photo.
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Nice to see the daffodils still flowering with you.
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No puns from me, just hope they grow ok and some of the babies are as beautiful as the mother.
This has generally been a disappointing year for seed all round. :( I only got seed off 3 Narcissus and about the same for the Crocus. The autumn was dreadful, so only the earliest flowerers set seed. Although a late N.obesus has seed pods swelling. Just a small donation for the SeedEx. this year.
Thanks Matt. My pot labelled Narcissus serotinus I have been nurturing for 4 years now has a bud appearing in the centre of the bunch of leaves from one bulb. Clearly NOT serotinus, so, as has been suggested, may be bulbocodium serotinus?
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Latestart, I have not grown Narcissus poeticus from seed so have no idea how long it takes.
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Dull this evening with no wind for a change so got some better pictures of Narcissus 'Baby Moon' seedlings. Unfortunately the slugs like them as much as I do.
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Hi
Prom Dance looks very much like Splatter that was bred by Rod Barwick. Photos of Splatter are on Daffseek and I suspect I have posted a photo of our feral Splatter that is growing between our rows on this forum in the past. In any case I have attached a copy of the photograph.
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Latestart's 'Prom Dance' looks to be an altogether larger flower than 'Splatter' to me.
(Reply 12, previous page http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=13161.msg333713#msg333713 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=13161.msg333713#msg333713) )
I cannot find any posts of 'Splatter' from you , Graham but Fermi has shown 'Splatter' several times over the years .....
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=4631.msg109078#msg109078 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=4631.msg109078#msg109078)
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=5963.msg166285#msg166285 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=5963.msg166285#msg166285)
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=10875.msg283684#msg283684 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=10875.msg283684#msg283684)
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=10882.msg283685#msg283685 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=10882.msg283685#msg283685)
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=12231.msg312643#msg312643 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=12231.msg312643#msg312643)
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Hi
Prom Dance looks very much like Splatter that was bred by Rod Barwick. Photos of Splatter are on Daffseek and I suspect I have posted a photo of our feral Splatter that is growing between our rows on this forum in the past. In any case I have attached a copy of the photograph.
I have just read what Mini-daffs and Maggie said and investigated some more. I find the family trees of my daffs very interesting. I think he is correct Maggie. I will not be a winning photographer so probably misled you on the size of the bloom. There are 2 or 3 flowers per stem. I checked that I got the name of what I bought and grew matched. I bought 5 bulbs in a Taylor's prepack supplied via Dobbies GC. On the front of the prepack it says Prom Dance, Chelsea favourite. Googling the name shows it is being sold from many of the websites including at least one where the owners are SRGC members. It was apparently used as Prom Dance in "Which" trials see http://www.spieringandco.com/-Narcissus-The-Harbingers-of-Spring (http://www.spieringandco.com/-Narcissus-The-Harbingers-of-Spring) to read what it says. You are correct mini-daffs in saying it is not on daffseek but Splatter is and was registered as such by GBF in 1999. Interestingly it was shown at the Harrowgate Spring Flower Show 2015 as Prom Dance. Is there a protocol in place for dealing with this type of error? if it is an error. I'm not latestart for nothing. This is totally outwith my field of knowledge. When I started to take gardening seriously a friend advised me to learn the latin names of plants so that I would not buy an inferior product but that is no help here. I hope you can help get to the bottom of the puzzle. To try and help re relative sizes I went out and picked five multiheaded daffs. and took some photos. I think the smallest one is a jonquilla but it was given by a friend who had surplus bulbs and there was a few different ones, none of them named. The photos also include Winston Churchill, February Gold, and Thalia.
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These puzzles can be interesting, eh?
Nice posy of daffs, anyway.
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I don't think I saw February Gold on any of the pictures and I'd be surprised if it was still flowering in May ???
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I don't think I saw February Gold on any of the pictures and I'd be surprised if it was still flowering in May ???
Sorry for the delay in replying but it takes me so long to take photos and resize them. LOL David they don't call you Hawkeye for nothing. The yellow narcissus on my earlier post is Quail. I planted four pots of Quail into a big pot beside a climbing rose. I placed several pots of bulbs on the ground in front of the pot. There are 3 pots of N. February Gold still flowering among those pots. I do not see a lot of differences between the flowers on these but I know I was extra careful when planting the bulbs to ensure only the prepack I was planting was open before going on to the next. All were bought as prepacks. The reason I was being so careful was that I hoped to show some in our SRGC show in 2015. All were left to their own devices and the vagaries of the weather.
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Very wet today, so Narcissus albidus RW8853 from the Seed Exchange, sown Feb 2012, looks a little drookit!
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;D
Latestart, from what I understand it is not unusual for commercial interests to rename bulbs but this is a fairly obvious one because it was one of the early small splits that is well known here. Not quite miniature but very prolific and perfumed. Its breeding was quite innovative at the time. Rod Barwick of GBF is noted for being an innovative breeder. Fyno is one of Rod's early flowering bulbocodium hybrids.
Anthony, is this the normal time for your Narcissus albidus to flower? We have some N. romieuxii flowering at the moment. They normally flower at this time of the year or a bit later despite our frosts. Not sure they would survive too well where it snows. We have a few things flowering at the moment. It just reminds me that I need to replant and plant seed out quicker. I need to finish planting and replanting before our main season starts. Just to make matters worse we have run out of pots and it will be a couple of weeks until a new shipment arrives. I need some of Anne's serfs!
We don't do too much with our winter flowering daffodils because there is no demand for them. I will take some photos of the N. romieuxii. One of them is very nice.
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thank you for the explanation on the change of.name. I think it is N.Splatter but the name is not very appealing.compared to N.Prom Dance. on another website where I showed it, the reaction has been very positive.
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Graham, the same pot was flowering on exactly the same day last year, so it seems to be normal. Flowers in January in the UK.
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;D
Latestart
It is usually the prerogative of the breeder to name what he or she has bred so most breeders consider it quite an insult for a commercial interest to rename them without consent just because they see another name as more marketable. Such renaming also makes a joke of the RHS Register and things like Daffseek. Lots of time and money has gone into both but what is the point if lots of people just call them what they think.
We (ie Keira Bulbs) sell quite a deal under number and reserve the naming rights to ourselves. I have allowed one of our US customers to name some seedlings of ours that have grown well for him. If you look at the breeding of a number of a number of Anne Wright's seedlings you will see some named and some numbered Keira bulbs. Anne has done the right thing. I would also be surprised if Anne would not be upset if one of her named seedlings was sold as something else.
The interesting thing about Splatter is that Prom Dance is being sold without breeder acknowledgement. It says originator unknown.
Most daffodil breeders know the other breeders and I will readily admit that I know and have a great respect for Rod Barwick. He is a highly innovative breeder. I don't tend to publish photos of other breeders flowers but that is because my prime interest is our own seedlings. However, Fermi grows quite a few things from Rod and he has put up photos of quite a few of his seedlings. Rod's innovative contribution has been enormous in bulbocodium hybrids where his seedlings have set the standard for quite some time.
It is -6 degrees celsius outside so it will be a while before I can start planting again.
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;D
Hi
Anthony if it is flowering now it is flowering in late Autumn. As I have mentioned we have a few things flowering now. They could be used to bring flowers forward. The tazetta seedling looks quite good. The N. romieuxii that has the rolled cup is a particularly good flower and would get marked if it flowered later in the season.
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;D
If you look at the breeding of a number of a number of Anne Wright's seedlings you will see some named and some numbered Keira bulbs. Anne has done the right thing. I would also be surprised if Anne would not be upset if one of her named seedlings was sold as something else.
Damn' right I would.
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Hi Anne and mini-daff you are confirming a reply I gave on another website -
"I showed a photo of Prom Dance on the SRGC site and another member said he thought it bore a close resemblance to Narcissus 'Splatter'. It was registered by an Australian grower back in 1999 so I am waiting to see if there is any update on that information. With three heads to a stem I think it is definitely a winner regardless of the name. Prom Dance sounds and suits the flower better I think but if I had bred it and gone to the trouble of registering it and then it was claimed by someone else I would be very upset. It will be interesting to see if there is a follow up on the problem."
Does PBR not operate for daffodils and narcissus? Daffseek and the RHS registration lists are a great way of documenting the plants but it is a shame if they do not regulate the use of registered bulbs. I laughed at how Rod Barwick named Fyno. He seems to be much more interested in the breeding of the bulbs rather than in naming them but that should not allow someone to take advantage of his good nature if that is what has happened.
edit by maggi to change Slatter to Splatter ;)
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PBR costs a lot of money, as far as I know.
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Thanks Matt. My pot labelled Narcissus serotinus I have been nurturing for 4 years now has a bud appearing in the centre of the bunch of leaves from one bulb. Clearly NOT serotinus, so, as has been suggested, may be bulbocodium serotinus?
Anthony,
at least yours has turned out to be a narcissus! ;D
Of course, the original seeds may never have germinated and a rogue muscari snuck in while I wasn't looking :-\
cheers
fermi
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Well Fermi, see my post in June.
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After mini-daffs queried the validity of the name of N. Prom Dance I felt duty bound to investigate some more. I emailed Melanie Underwood, the International Registrar of Daffodils at the RHS. I copy her reply here for you.
Further to your email I have had a chance to investigate your query further.
‘Splatter’ does bear a resemblance to Prom Dance, however, I do not believe them to be one and the same.
The corona of ‘Splatter’ tends to be in two whorls with the outer whorl generally tucking behind the inner perianth segments. The corona of Prom Dance is more deeply lobed than that of ‘Splatter’. Also, the outer perianth segments of Prom Dance are mucronate whilst those of ‘Splatter’ are not (or hardly) so.
Currently, I do not have the parentage of Prom Dance to compare with that of ‘Splatter’. This is important, as there are many examples of two cultivars appearing to be similar but which have very different parentage and, therefore, any similarity is co-incidental.
I hope this answers your question but please contact me if you would like to discuss the"
I am not sure I can ask any more of her but am happy to keep up the correspondance in the interests of keeping the integrity of the information we can glean from The Daffodil Register. If anyone can suggest a line of inquiry or wish to contact her themselves to take this forward I would be interested in the outcome. I am an amateur gardener and not qualified to have deep meaningful conversations on technical points.
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Research into this matter is not helped by the fact that 'Prom Dance' does not appear to be registered.
A reminder about the origins of this discussion : (Latestart's 'Prom Dance' looks to be an altogether larger flower than 'Splatter' to me in the pix shown in this thread , though not in other pix on the web.)
(Reply 12, previous page http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=13161.msg333713#msg333713 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=13161.msg333713#msg333713) )
Fermi has shown 'Splatter' several times over the years .....
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=4631.msg109078#msg109078 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=4631.msg109078#msg109078)
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=5963.msg166285#msg166285 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=5963.msg166285#msg166285)
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=10875.msg283684#msg283684 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=10875.msg283684#msg283684)
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=10882.msg283685#msg283685 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=10882.msg283685#msg283685)
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=12231.msg312643#msg312643 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=12231.msg312643#msg312643)
I think it does seem that someone just didn't like the name 'Splatter' ::) ;D Of course, someone in Europe may have bred a similar flower and named it, informally, 'Prom Dance' :-\
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This shows the importance of proper registration.