Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
General Subjects => General Forum => Topic started by: WimB on April 24, 2016, 06:51:20 PM
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A bit of a lengthy question but I'm making plans to turn a piece of meadow into a woodland garden and I was wondering which trees I should use. I know a lot of my fellow gardeners here have created such a garden but they came across problems later on, planted them too close or planted trees which gave problems later on (roots too close to the surface and/or forming a thick mat, shade too dense, they get too big,...)
I'd like to benefit from the knowledge gathered here, so I don't run into problems I could have avoided 15 years into the future.
Which trees would you recommend? I really like those with good flowers, nice Autumn colours, nice bark,...or any other you could recommend.
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Two of the best smaller trees - in my opinion - Acer griseum and Sorbus casmeriana. Mind you, all the Sorbus are pretty good - vilmorinii, hupehensis..... excellent plants all.
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I also like the Cotoneaster bullata and its like. Not very exciting out of flower and fruit but great for the birds.
I'd avoid anything that could get too big ( I'm assuming you're not converting half of Belgium) like Acer 'Crimson King'!
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I was going to suggest the same as Maggi, but add any of the small leaved acers (We have a couple of large leaved sycamores in our garden and the leaves are a nuisance when they fall). Go for small leaves. Amelanchier - so good in spring and autumn. Betula - small leaves, good autumn colour, fantastic bark, BUT lots of roots near the surface. Parrotia persica -lovely autumn colour and unusual shape. Cercidiphyllum- fantastic tree. Fothergilla, another super small tree. So many to choose from, I hope it's a big meadow!
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I just planted an Amelanchier x grandiflora :) but all the serviceberries are great all seasons trees. Also love Acer griseum and seen it in many situations - exquisite.
Cercis comes in small size and has nice cv., including few with colourful foliage like Forest Pansy, The Rising Sun...
I love Davidia involucrata but impossible to find, surely more available in Europe.
Stewartia...
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Sorbus thibetica 'John Mitchell' is a lovely tree. It grows in the Queen's garden at Buckingham Palace.
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Gabriela suggests Stewartia and I will add pseudocamellia. I have had it in my garden for several years and it is still small (4-5m). Nice bark too.
You could try a rose like Rosa roxburghii forma normalis. It is more shrublike but get quite tall (4m+) to be a rose and is easily stemmed up. The stem and bark is very different from other roses.
It is also possible to grow Corylus avellana with only one stem or you can choose Corylus colurna which is one-stemmed and with a remarkable bark. Neither with showy flowers though.
What about Arallia spinosa or A. elata? A few suckers but they are easily removed. Nice flowers.
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Thanks for the info, ladies and gentlemen.
It's only for 1500 m², so not too many and not too big, (not that planting one big tree would convert half of Belgium, Maggi :P only one quarter of it :P ;) )
Davidia involucrata can be found over here, Gabriela...
I love Cercidiphyllum but I'm not really sure about the rootsystem, does it grow very superficial?
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I have Amelanchier "Autumn Brilliance" in my garden. The herbaceous materials do very well under it. One thing though: the berries are a diaretic for birds. I love the Cedar Waxwings that come to feed on them, but then they poop all over on the plants below. The rain washes it off fairly well, but until then you have the white spots on the leaves. It shows up especially on large leaf plants, like Deinanthe, Peltoboykinia. And even though the rain washes the white off, the clumps of seeds from the berries remain on the leaves.
Some other choices to think about:
-- Dirca palustris could easily be trained into a tree form. Growing in the wild here, even in cold Minnesota, I have seen it up to 3 meters high as an open, understory tree. Usually, it only has one or two stems. Grown in the open, it will want to be more bushy. Mine is growing full sun for twelve years and has never suckered.
-- Hamamalis spp.
-- Chionantha spp.
-- Syringa reticulata. Cultivars tend to be tight growing with dense foliage, but if you get a seedling grown plant, they are often much more open growing and smaller leaves.
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Other suggestions from a zone 7B garden:
- Lonicera maackii. Excellent "umbrella" habit, multi-trunk, moderate size (3m high here), fast growth, roots not really present at the surface. Widely available and not expensive. A good half-shadower here for under-planting (the leaves are scarce enough to let the light go through).
Small scented flowers in may-june.
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- Cercis canadensis 'Forest Pansy'. Similar habit and size, but not so cheap or easy to find. Not very fast grower either, but lovely pink blooms in April-May. Purpurescent leaves.
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I have Amelanchier "Autumn Brilliance" in my garden. The herbaceous materials do very well under it. One thing though: the berries are a diaretic for birds. I love the Cedar Waxwings that come to feed on them, but then they poop all over on the plants below. The rain washes it off fairly well, but until then you have the white spots on the leaves. It shows up especially on large leaf plants, like Deinanthe, Peltoboykinia. And even though the rain washes the white off, the clumps of seeds from the berries remain on the leaves.
Natural fertiliser! ;D
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Thanks Rick and Zephirine.
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I'd definitely plant several Hamamelis, plus also probably its relative Corylopsis. I'd also go with Maggi's suggestion of Acer griseum, though actually a lot of very fine acers are available - A. palmatum or pennsylvanicum for example. Many are quite slow-growing though which may not be so good to get shade initially.
Betula ermannii, B. utilis and B. albosinensis are all very good with lovely bark and catkins. They look good planted in small groups and give a nice light shade. There are some lovely varieties available these days, see for example Stone Lane Gardens.
http://stonelanegardens.com/ (http://stonelanegardens.com/).
I think a few fruit trees can be very nice and meet the blossom criterion, plus of course you get the fruit as a bonus!
Finally it's worth considering a few native trees that will coppice: hazel; oak; perhaps lime (Tilia) and willows if conditions suit. These are good for wildife and by managing them you can create different patches of light and shade in a way you might not be able to with other species.
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I don't know how available Acer triflorum and Acer manshuricum would be in Europe, but they are fine small trees.
Cercidiphyllum japonicum is such a pretty tree and the scent that is released in the fall is a nice suprise.
None of these trees appear to have shallow roots and I have seen them successfully underplanted.
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Hello Wim, have you considered native trees from your own area? Also, instead of converting your meadow into a woodland you could have both by planting trees a good distance apart around the meadow and underplanting with bulbs and perennials. This kind of habitat was called "wood pasture" in the UK many years ago.
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Thanks guys, Hamamelis, Corylopsis and Cercidiphyllum were already on my list.
Smack in the middle of the meadow there's already one young Quercus robur....that's a native and I was thinking of adding some Sambucus for sure, I'll have a look at some other natives too!
A wood pasture sounds wonderful but since I'm quite allergic to grass pollen I really want to get rid of the grass in the following years.
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Wim, forgot to add Cornus - C. florida, nuttallii and mas.
Veel geluk met de bostuin!
Tristan
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Stryrax japonica and for sunnier edges Nothofagus antarctica.
Davidia is not too hard to find here BUT var. vilmoriniana which is the only truly Z6 hardy form is very hard to find, it may well be around but no one distinguishes it from the tender v. incrolucrata. The latter var. involucrata routinely freezes to the ground at Arnold.
johnw
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Stryrax japonica and for sunnier edges Nothofagus antarctica.
Davidia is not too hard to find here BUT var. vilmoriniana which is the only truly Z6 hardy form is very hard to find, it may well be around but no one distinguishes it from the tender v. incrolucrata. The latter var. involucrata routinely freezes to the ground at Arnold.
johnw
All of the above are great and I would be interested in a good source for Davidia (whichever variety) John if you don't mind.
And a note to defend the serviceberry (jokingly) - I think it depends on the circumstances, i.e. where one lives. Inside the city you will never see the mess Rick describes and anyway it's not the kind of tree to provide the shade Deinanthe likes, in my opinion.
Or it may be that when I like something I accept the 'whole package' ;)
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Some smaller trees/shrubs worth growing are Viburnum opulus, Euonymus europaeus, Acer campestris, Sorbus torminalis, S. aucuparia, Prunus avium, P. padus, Malus sylvestris, Rhamnus frangula, Ilex aquifolium, Cornus sanguinea, Viburnum lantana, Buxus sempervirens, Carpinus betulus, Taxus baccata, Pinus sylvestris, Juniperus communis, Tilia cordata,Pyrus communis. These should give quite a selection of size and shape and also provide you with crab apple jelly, which is delicious. Some are also attractive to wildlife.
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Cherries, especially East-Asian origin as they have nicer autumn colours
Apple-trees: both blossom and showy fruits
Woody Cornus. C. florida cultivars should grow well in your warmer climate, but even here they do reasonably well. C. kousa is excellent. I have kousa Satomi - grows well in dry shade, flowers are nicely pink and long-lasting. Autumn colour very good. And last but not least, if you would like to combine beauty and some fruits for yourself - C. mas with plenty of cultivars. I have only old cv Macrocarpa - the fruits are big and quite palatable. They are also ornamental, but not long-lasting. Ukrainian cultivars selected for fruit quality may be much better in taste. Here you can try to buy them: http://cornusmas.eu/ (http://cornusmas.eu/) (almost my neighbours). Only the autumn colour of C. mas is not perfect.
Another world is Viburnum - smaller and bigger, flowering almost year-round, good autumn colour sometimes. Fragrance. Easy to buy.
Whether they are shallow-rooting - I do not know. My garden is located among old birches, so it is shallow-rooted throughout and I am not able to judge additional effect of smaller trees.
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All of the above are great and I would be interested in a good source for Davidia (whichever variety) John if you don't mind.
Might I ask why on earth you would want the tender variety that routinely freezes to the ground in milder Boston?
john
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Might I ask why on earth you would want the tender variety that routinely freezes to the ground in milder Boston?
john
You may :) and surely I would prefer that one that doesn't freeze. I know it doesn’t sound too wise but I grow or/and buy some species just because of the name – say hookeri, sieboldii, wilsonii, fargesii… and so on, as reminders of the botanical explorers/collectors associated with them.
E.H. Wilson is by far my favourite and there is a good story regarding his outing in search of Davidia. And there is of course Père David who first collected it….
Speaking of Wilson, another excellent small tree is – Heptacodium miconioides. What other tree will flower in September?!
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All of the above are great and I would be interested in a good source for Davidia (whichever variety) John if you don't mind.
. . . .
I picked 3 seeds in the streets of London once when visiting. They all germinated. I have kept one. It is still a small plant but gains about 25cm a year;)
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and more hectares Wim ;)
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Some thoughts:
-- Sorbus species are generally not as healthy in the Low Countries as they are in the UK.
-- Acer griseum is a beautiful small tree but is prone to verticilium wilt (especially as a young plant). Acer triflorum is not as showy as A. griseum but might be a better choice when it comes to a healthy tree.
-- Davidia involucrata can grow quite big, maybe in the long run too big for a somewhat small garden. Furthermore, some people find that the spring leafs of Davidia smell like cat pee. (For me they smell like stinging nettles).
-- Japanese cherries have in the last few years been attacked in the Low Countries by the Monilinia fungus which leads to wilting and branch die back.
-- So many Cornus florida shrubs/trees I see are covered in powdery mildew in the summer. A much better choice is Cornus kousa which performs well in most years in the Low Countries.
-- Malus/Crabapples have a lot to offer but be sure to pick one that is sufficienly resistant to scab and mildew.
My choice would be one or two of the following:
- Styrax japonicus
- Stewartia pseudocamellia or rostrata
- Cornus kousa chinensis or a reliable cultivar of Cornus kousa
- Acer triflorum
- Halesia diptera magniflora (a short flowering period but magical when in full bloom)
- Malus 'Red Sentinel'
Garden Prince (who lives in The Netherlands)
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A much better choice is Cornus kousa which performs well in most years in the Low Countries.
- Cornus kousa chinensis or a reliable cultivar of Cornus kousa
Mmm.. just make sure you see it in flower. I bought a 'C. kousa chinensis', had to wait 5 years for a flower, and it now produces a reasonable number of small greenish flowers that are easily missed. Waste of space. I'm sure there are better forms but you need to be careful.
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True!
Cornus kousa 'National' and C. kousa 'Schmetterling' (German for 'butterfly') are reliable performers.
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Another tree that might be of interest is Alnus. Fast growth, light shade, suited for coppicing, fallen leaves decompose very quickly in autumn, nice early flowering, natural nitrate fertiliser, won't seed themselves around unless the soil is boggy (at least for the 2 indigenous varieties).
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and more hectares Wim ;)
LOL
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Some thoughts:
-- Sorbus species are generally not as healthy in the Low Countries as they are in the UK.
-- Acer griseum is a beautiful small tree but is prone to verticilium wilt (especially as a young plant). Acer triflorum is not as showy as A. griseum but might be a better choice when it comes to a healthy tree.
-- Davidia involucrata can grow quite big, maybe in the long run too big for a somewhat small garden. Furthermore, some people find that the spring leafs of Davidia smell like cat pee. (For me they smell like stinging nettles).
-- Japanese cherries have in the last few years been attacked in the Low Countries by the Monilinia fungus which leads to wilting and branch die back.
-- So many Cornus florida shrubs/trees I see are covered in powdery mildew in the summer. A much better choice is Cornus kousa which performs well in most years in the Low Countries.
-- Malus/Crabapples have a lot to offer but be sure to pick one that is sufficienly resistant to scab and mildew.
My choice would be one or two of the following:
- Styrax japonicus
- Stewartia pseudocamellia or rostrata
- Cornus kousa chinensis or a reliable cultivar of Cornus kousa
- Acer triflorum
- Halesia diptera magniflora (a short flowering period but magical when in full bloom)
- Malus 'Red Sentinel'
Garden Prince (who lives in The Netherlands)
Thanks GP...
I find monilinia can be stopped with trichoderma...I grow Cronus kousa 'Schmetterling' already and that one is really beautiful!
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Another tree that might be of interest is Alnus. Fast growth, light shade, suited for coppicing, fallen leaves decompose very quickly in autumn, nice early flowering, natural nitrate fertiliser, won't seed themselves around unless the soil is boggy (at least for the 2 indigenous varieties).
Hadn't thought about Alnus, a nice tree indeed! Merci, François.
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There used to be lots of Acer Negundo in my parent's garden. They are extremely fast growing when young but don't get that tall when adult, so if you want quickly trees of some size they might be en interesting choice. Or else you can opt for Acer Campestre as an indigeneous choice. Both trees have also the advantage that the fallen leaves will not make a 'carpet' on the soil allowing other plants to sprout freely in spring.