Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Seedy Subjects! => Grow From Seed => Topic started by: Véronique Macrelle on June 13, 2024, 02:11:14 PM
-
I've been ordering Arisaema propinquuum and thunbegii seeds from srgc for several years now, but I can't get them to germinate.
This year, I tried 6 weeks of hot, 6 weeks of cold, but still nothing.
Is there a particular technique for these species?
When I sow my own A. ciliatum Morello cherries, they germinate quite well.
otherwise dear forumists,
Do you know of a source of Arisaema seeds in UE?
-
Veronique, soak the dried seeds in water for 24 - 48 hours. Change the water several times to remove any germination inhibitors. Good luck next time! I have never tried thunbergii, but have germinated propinquum this way.
-
Veronique, seeds of Arisaema propinquum (likely actually to be a part of the griffithii complex) are highly ephemeral. Seeds will need to be sown as fresh as possible, or stored in cool and just moist conditions to retain viability.
Arisaema thunbergii retains viability well, but they are hypogeal germinators, and so don't make a leaf in their first year. Instead they just make a small protocorm only and the leaf appears from year 2 onwards. I expect many people discard otherwise healthy pots of seedling tubers due to this.
-
thank you for your detailed answers.
I suspected something like that. I've already tried A. griffithii and failed, and I'd read that the seeds were often not viable.
For thunbergii, I have a pot that has made its 2nd spring, and I have nothing yet. But last year it wasn't sown until mid-March. Do I still have hope for 2025?
keeping a seedling pot just the right amount of moisture for so long isn't exactly easy.
For species that germinate more easily, I've had some success with leaching, in particular this year I've got a nice pot of A fargesii (12 germinations) but for ovale, amurensis or consanguineum, germination is very sparse: only 1 or 2 plants.
Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
-
Here are the results of my Arisaema ciliatum seedling.
No matter what I do, the leaves turn yellow. I've read that their growing season should be extended as much as possible, but I haven't figured out how to do that yet.
These seeds come from my plants, which I fertilised with a pipette of water.
I had a good germination rate. The largest bulbils are 8 mm wide.
is it possible to do better for this species?
on the other hand, 3 germinations were late and the bulbs barely measured 2 mm. their leaves turned yellow at the same time as the others. I don't think these will survive the winter.
-
I find that first year arisaema seedlings often die back early. I just keep them in the same pot, fairly dry and protected from the worst of the frost over the winter. I pot them individually the next spring and they grow on just fine.
-
I get seeds from the Arisaema Enthusiast Group
https://florapix.nl/arisaema-l/
-
Did you order any this year, Diane?
I'd been told that AEG would cease trading after 2023, particularly for seed exchange, so I didn't check.
-
No, but when I checked their website, it looked as though they still have seeds.
-
last year i ordered what was left in july and got 2 or 3 year old seeds of tortuosum and triphyllum, consanguineum: some germinated, others just a little (1 or 2) and still others not at all.
I'd like to try other species.
The results of my Arisaema amurensis seedlings are disappointing: the tubers are only 2 mm wide. I've already sown this species 4 or 5 times (seeds from srgc or SAJA ), and I can't get past that stage. Usually, nothing comes back the following year. At least there are about ten of them here, whereas I usually only get 2 or 3.
-
as I always recycle the soil from my seedling pots (you never know!)
this year I've got some surprise seedlings that turned up where they weren't expected!
I don't know what species they are!
-the first one has a very small leaf (less than 1 cm!) it grew in the pot of a pepper, so I have chosen Arisaema... who knows, maybe it's a thunbergii that's finally surfacing?
but I've sown so many species that haven't produced anything and recycled their seedbed soil.
-the other two have emerged in the middle of my Codonopsis ovata and will probably stay there until i find out what it is, i don't want to disturb my Codonopsis ovata. most likely, it's Arisaema flavum, i think, as it fruits easily..
I don't suppose you can tell an Arisaema from a seedling?
-
the results of my Arisaema fargesii sowing. The largest tubers are about 1 cm wide. Can we do better for a first year?
I notice a variation in the colour of the tubers.
These seeds were donated to the SAJA association (France) by a kind donor on the forum, whom I thank wholeheartedly :). I was able to order some, I got about twenty and here I am with these 18 little tubers.
They germinated very well. I now sow Arisaema seedlings in March under a velux window in the house in a cool room (around 15°C): they sprout more quickly and more evenly than in the cold greenhouse, but there are still some latecomers who have only produced small tubers.
I've noticed that when there are twenty or so seeds, almost all germinate, but when there's a pack of 7 to 10 seeds, the Arisaema germinate very little (0 to 3 germinate). Do the seeds help each other through a set of hormones? Or is it just chance?
The next time I don't have many, I'll sow them in packets, barely spaced out.
-
:-[I have the impression that my Arisaema surprise no. 1 is more of a Pinellia, as it is starting a 2nd leaf.
-
I've been ordering Arisaema propinquuum and thunbegii seeds from srgc for several years now, but I can't get them to germinate.
This year, I tried 6 weeks of hot, 6 weeks of cold, but still nothing.
Is there a particular technique for these species?
When I sow my own A. ciliatum Morello cherries, they germinate quite well.
otherwise dear forumists,
Do you know of a source of Arisaema seeds in UE?
Véronique,
Soaking the seed in 1tsp KNO3 / l of water is sometimes helpful.
-
How does potassium nitrate affect seeds?
-
Véronique,
It has a similar effect to Gibberellic acid. I'm not sure of the chenistry; but, I think it stimulates the prodoction of auxins [growth hormones] in the seed.
-
A very scientific article on the topic.
https://www.mdpi.com/2674-1024/1/1/2#:~:text=Potassium%20nitrate%20(KNO3)%20has%20been%20demonstrated%20to%20break%20seed,10%2C11%2C12%5D.
-
Thanks Jeff,
it's interesting, and I'll certainly give it a try if I find some Arisaema seeds to sow.
Perhaps you could put this link on the Arisaema sowing thread too?
-
it's interesting, and I'll certainly give it a try if I find some Arisaema seeds to sow.
Have you already tried it?
I tested some Ga3 on A. tortuosum seeds one year. Not only did they germinate well, but they also grew very vigorously, with a second stem/leaf on each bulb.
They flowered after the 3rd spring.
but no action on thunbergii, griffithi or sikkokianum... sown several times. but i've since read that you need seeds stored moist...
-
Véronique,
I don't grow many Arisaema seeds; but, I have used it successfully on many other difficult seeds.
-
I finally bought/ordered the seeds of 5 species of Arisaema, 10 seeds/package which were harvested in 2023, but the seller certifies that they will germinate well: concinnum, costatum ,formosanum, ringens, urashima.
for urashima, which is said to be Arisaema thumberghii var urashima, it would be in my interest to sow it as soon as I receive it? (maybe in 2 weeks)
Does it germinate hypogeously in the first warm season?
-
If you search enough of the www, KNO3 is mentioned frequently, but the soaking period used varies hugely.
I found one paper recently (I do not recall the species concerned), and their experiments looked at three different concentrations and the lowest gave the highest/quickest germination, but they did not do the obvious and look at a still lower concentration.
Probably the commonest concentration recommended is 1%.
I have tried with a few seeds but not enough to make any useful comment about concentration/soak time. I have two Androcymbium (now Colchicum) seeds that have germinated, which is not many, but approaching 100% more than most people see, me included with un-treated seed. I am hoping for more as the weather cools.
I make 10ml (1%) at a time, in a small (~7cm diameter), shallow dish and use a tea-strainer (very fine stainless steel seive) to hold the seeds - it makes life very easy that way. I also do not rinse after soaking, I just drain them on kitchen towel, still in the strainer, sow and then mist them to settle them into the compost, usually top-dressed with 2-3mm of very fine grrit.
-
Véronique,
My method is very similar to Vinny123's. I use 1/4 tsp per 0.5 liter of water [1/8 tsp per cupful]. I soak the seeds in a cupful of solution for 3 hrs and pour the solution through a coffee filter in a funnel to recover the seeds. This works well even for very small seeds. Several Violas, that are difficult to germinate, respond well to this treatment
-
thank you for all this information. it's really interesting!
-
I'm disappointed to find very few Arisaema species in the SRGC list this year, compared with other years!
So I won't have anything new this year, whereas in previous years there were costatum, heterophyllum, urashima, triphyllum, serratum... and sometimes others...
I have the impression that finding different Arisaema is now becoming almost impossible and that I'll have to accept it.
I've also realised that I have to keep a close eye on all the plants (in all families) and pollinate them by hand now. What an impossible job!
I was surprised to find plants in the garden that used to fruit systematically and are now seedless, such as Digitalis and Verbascum. As a result, Digitalis lanata and ferruginea have disappeared from the garden, even though they were plants that renewed themselves.
Gooseberry bushes that no longer bear fruit, etc. other fruit trees that do so very little.
The phenomenon is becoming more and more obvious: here, there aren't enough insects to do the job any more, which is very sad... :'(
-
I'm disappointed to find very few Arisaema species in the SRGC list this year, compared with other years!
Veronique, I believe the seed list on the SRGC page ist still last year’s list. The new list will appear sometime soon, as it still needs to be compiled, with the deadline for donations being only tomorrow. So, all is not lost yet 😉
BR,
Tom
-
The list hasn't been finalised yet? so I'm still hopeful! ;D
-
Véronique,
Your disappointment and frustration are understandable. Maintaining genetically diverse, yet pure (true to variety or species), seed lines is a great deal of work and takes a degree of skill and accurate knowledge. Excessively inbred seed lines that lack genetic diversity and unintended hybrids abound.
I get many complaints that the diversity of species available for garden use is declining. Maintaining lesser-known species in cultivation has been an ongoing problem for years – read Seeds of Adventure for some examples. Climatic change is only compounding these problems. Fortunately, there are methods that can greatly ameliorate these issues, however as you know, one person cannot possibly maintain hundreds of seed lines. Here in the U.S.A. the U.S. Department of Agriculture maintains a large seed bank with thousands of species and varieties. It takes a large trained staff to maintain the seed lines and only a small fraction can be grown out each season.
May you have good luck with you endeavor. Keep in mind that excessively inbred out-breeding species can lack vigor or suffer from inbred depression. They also might be masquerading as true species but are unintended hybrids. In addition, continually selfing inbreeding species is a very poor strategy for maintaining a species or variety. For example, this is a common practice for those that maintain large collections of tomato varieties. Continually selfing one plant of each variety generation after generation works, sort of, however these excessively selfed varieties lack the genetic diversity they once had and can be very susceptible to adverse growing conditions and be lost to cultivation. In their natural habitat, inbreeding species out breed more than we might want to believe. Science has demonstrated this repeatedly.
-
It's also why I like to get several individuals per species, and why I like sowing... I like to see a bit of diversity...
but the question is: what will happen to a world without insects?
-
Certasinly in the UK, insect numbers were massively down this year - very cool and very wet until late spring, a cool summer with plenty more wet weather - the only invertebrates to do well were molluscs.
A Cottoneaster and the Buddleja here would normally be smothered in insects when in flower, but they were very few and far between. The only mass of insects that I have seen all year was last week - a large clump of ivy in full flower, in very warm sunshine, facing south - it was humming with numerous species of fly.
If we get a mild winter and an early and warm spring next yearr, people will be cursing about bugs at picnics just the same as ever.
The prophets of doom in the UK use a year something like 20-30 years ago as their "standard" and compare insect counts to that. The problem is that that year is now recognised as a year of super-abundance of insects.
-
you're lucky if you still have an abundance of insects at home.
Here, it's been a few years since hoverflies, bumblebees and butterflies disappeared from the garden. Even the flies don't seem that numerous any more. It's a bit strange: they came in 2 or 3 waves and then disappeared just as quickly.
In the garden, I'm feeling it more and more when it comes to collecting seeds for swaps and harvesting fruit.
the only blackcurrant bush that produced this year was a plant bought as being self-pollinating.
a Campanula pyramidalis flowered for 2 to 3 months... and yet I wasn't able to collect any seeds!
The weather here in 2024 wasn't too bad, with just one hot spell and rain every 10 days or so: the plants finally enjoyed it, even if some of the trees didn't recover from the previous 2 years of drought.
-
Are you close to agricultural properties that may be using insecticides that will kill bees and the like?
In some places this has seen bee populations reduced or wiped out completely. Here we have illimitations on a range of insecticides sales to home gardeners, the applied logic being that DIY users are using such products indiscriminately. However commercial agriculture activity is not so heavily censored.
-
Yes, there are arable fields just behind the garden, on the other side of my hedge.
-
Neonicotinoids are a group of insecticides used widely on farms and in urban landscapes. They are absorbed by plants and can be present in pollen and nectar, making them toxic to bees.
I recall many years' ago seeing a you tube video of an orcharding area in China where pear flowers were being hand pollinated to achieve fruit set, the cause was intensive long term use of pesticides.
Not sure of your relationship with your farming neighbors but a polite question as to what pesticides they are using may give an explanation of bee decline. Farmers are often sensitive to any questions on their use of chemicals as they are a necessary evil to achieving good crop yields, that latter usually the only focus of the farmers.
-
Neonic's with a very few exceptions, are banned in the EU and UK and have been for several years. The exceptions have been primarily non-flowering crops, such as sugar beet. With only 4 beet processing factories still operating within the UK, beet is a realtively uncommon crop now as it is uneconomic to transport it far to be processed.
That said, recent research suggests that despite neonic's being used in minute amounts and also readily broken down by soil microbes, enough does survive in the soil to be problematic (including via run-off and uptake by wild plants ("weeds"), which do flower and pose problems for insects).
The big agricultural problem is aphids, not so much in themselves, but as vectors for virus diseases.
What class of compound is the pesticide of choice for field crops now, I don't know, although a browse of a UK/EU agrucultural supplier would answer that.
If weather is poor, insect numbers plummet, or more accurately, never build up.
-
Veronique, have I offered you Arisaema 'Bockii' seeds?
It is a good and vigorous plant here and I have bought it from Sulev Savisaar.
He wrote in his catalogue about it:
Since about 1993, the Moscow Main Botanical Garden has been distributing seeds around the world under the misleading name Arisaema bockii, which is not really a true species growing in Sichuan, China (within the variability of Arisaema yunnanense ), but rather A.amurense. To celebrate this special form of amurense, I have christened it 'Bockii'. In my garden, it is the most beautiful of the A.amurense. Its dark purple inflorescence bracts have green streaks. As the inflorescence is shorter than the leaf stalks (in the real A. bockiion the contrary!), the beautiful inflorescence bracts tend to remain in the shade in May and June. The height of the foliage in the garden reaches 70 cm in the middle of July, the fruit reaches only 40 cm.
[attachimg=1]
-
Ah Leena! Your Arisaema ‘Bockii’ seems very interesting to me, with its giant amurense shape. I have a weakness for very large Arisaemas, or those with remarkable or imposing leaves, such as costatum or the immature fargesii.
Arisaema flowers are attractive, but their leaves are more durable and often just as remarkable.
What's more, if it's vigorous, all the better!
-
I will send the seeds to you next week. They are still in the berries, I will have to wash and dry them first. :)
-
Oh thanks, that's great ;D! I don't mind if they're still in their fruit, but if it's damp, it'll be heavier...
-
Leena, I went to see what he said about A. bockii on the facebook group for Arisaema.
It seems to be an Arisaema engleri, the name bockii referred to an earlier but incomplete description. Perhaps it should be called Arisaema bockii/engleri.
It's so beautiful! :)Both the leaves and the flowers...
-
Leena, I went to see what he said about A. bockii on the facebook group for Arisaema.
It seems to be an Arisaema engleri, the name bockii referred to an earlier but incomplete description. Perhaps it should be called Arisaema bockii/engleri.
It's so beautiful! :)Both the leaves and the flowers...
Thank you for this info! I didn't know it. :)
-
Hi Leena and Veronique,
I just thought I'd jump in and try and clear up a few things regarding any confusion over the name Arisaema bockii and for anyone else reading (as the genus Arisaema has more than enough name confusion already..)
Leena - your plant is Arisaema amurense (a very variable species, with many different forms in the wild and cultivation). Yours sounds like a good rubust plant. But you'd be wise not to follow Sulev Savisaar and circulate it under the name 'bockii' (either as a species name or cultivar name) as it will lead to confusion!
The reason being - in the latest version of the Flora of China, the plant that many people know as Arisaema engleri has been renamed Arisaema bockii. Valid arguements exist for naming this plant either 'engleri' or 'bockii', and depending on who you ask, you'll get different answers as to which name is correct (way above my pay grade!) Whatever this plant should be called, it has nothing to do with A.yunnanense, or A.amurense.
Veronique - I hope you can track down some fresh Arisaema seeds!
-
thanks Ben,
I'd realised it was a very fine specimen of amurense ;)
-
Leena - your plant is Arisaema amurense (a very variable species, with many different forms in the wild and cultivation). Yours sounds like a good rubust plant. But you'd be wise not to follow Sulev Savisaar and circulate it under the name 'bockii' (either as a species name or cultivar name) as it will lead to confusion!
The reason being - in the latest version of the Flora of China, the plant that many people know as Arisaema engleri has been renamed Arisaema bockii. Valid arguements exist for naming this plant either 'engleri' or 'bockii', and depending on who you ask, you'll get different answers as to which name is correct (way above my pay grade!) Whatever this plant should be called, it has nothing to do with A.yunnanense, or A.amurense.
Thanks Ben. :)
Yes, this is a good and robust plant, and when I had googled it seems indeed that there are different plants under the name A.engleri, some which look a bit like mine, and some not. My plant does look more like A.amurense though it is more vigorous and bigger with different colour "flower" than my other A.amurense, but it is a very variable species. I haven't sent it's seeds to the exchange because its name hasn't been clear.
-
and I've noticed that the list of online grianes is growing nicely. :)
and that I have more desires than I can order in bags! as usual... :P
-
I was lucky to receive a number of Arisaema seeds in the SRGC seed exchange last year. I sowed the seeds under lights and most germinated well. The only species not to germinate were ovale and amurense. After 6 months, I moved the pots to a cold greenhouse. Both species have now just started germinating! I wonder if this is typical of the pistillata group although I have previously had serratum seeds germinate in the ‘traditional’ way.
Any insight would be gratefully received.
JM ...in the UK
-
They seem to be germinating in the wrong season... I guess you shouldn't let them go under O°C.
try to give them as long a growing cycle as possible.
I've got the same problem with a seedling too. it germinated after I'd reworked the soil in the old seed pot. what's more, it looks like a species I don't have yet... I don't really know what to do with it. :-\
It cohabits with Viola walteri, which I'm also fond of.