Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Seedy Subjects! => Grow From Seed => Topic started by: Véronique Macrelle on July 06, 2024, 06:13:02 AM
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Arum maculatum 'Bakovci' grows slowly but surely, extremely variegated.
I have a fructification that is as variegated as the leaves.
does a seedling from a variegated plant produce variegated descendants?
Last year, I left them too long and an animal got to them before I did!
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there were 9 viable seeds in these fruits. I removed them from their pulp, soaked them for a day and sowed them today. I imagine they will germinate in the autumn...
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The common variegated maculatum varieties come approx. true from seed, as do the varieties of italicum.
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I hope they germinate this winter... I can't remember what month Arum maculatum leaves usually emerge from the ground in winter, can you?
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It will obviously vary location to location, but naturally being woodland/hedgerow plants, they are out of the ground very early, to catch the light before being shaded-out by trees, hedges and other herbaceous plants. They are commonly covered in light snow for a day or so. Educated guess here in UK midlands - probably (early) March.
I have just looked for the variety online and see that it is very highly variegated, which makes me think that it may be caused by virus (common in very many variegated plants), which may not transfer via seed. I would guess that most or all other forms of A. m. are genetic variants..................
It is also very expensive from UK nurseries, which suggests vegetative propagation too.
I have a variegated form of Zantedeschia aethiopica that is very similar in all respects, including price!!
Good luck in getting some variegation via seed. It will be interesting to see what if any variiation you do get.
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Arum maculatum ´Bakovci´grows since many years in my garden, even the spathe is variegated.
(https://up.picr.de/48644026ka.jpg)
Some of the seedlings had plain green leaves, some were variegated similar to the mother plant. These last years some seedlings popped up showing the parentage of Arum maculatum var. maculatum.
(https://up.picr.de/48644025vh.jpg)
(https://up.picr.de/48644024am.jpg)
(https://up.picr.de/48644023ik.jpg)
(https://up.picr.de/48644022rk.jpg)
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............. These last years some seedlings popped up showing the parentage of Arum maculatum var. maculatum.
I don't think that any vars are recognised?
Walking 100's of metres of the right hedgerow here in the UK, you can walk past literally 1000's of plants with every variation imaginable (except variegation).
Virus infection seems extremely likely as the source of variegation.
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Yes, there are varieties registered, look p. 48/49. RHS Cultivar Registration Bulletins.htm
As the yellow variegation of Arum maculatum ´Bakovci´ is spread only by seed and not to adult plants in my garden since about 20 years, I don´t think it´s caused by virus.
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Many variegated cultivars of numerous species of plant are so because of believed virus infection. It does not spread (many will say that this is a shame).
This is why some variegated plants show (very) random variegation, and many revert (lose the vurus - I found a beautiful variegated Buddleja seedling at work, just growing beside the footpath - it is now plain green sadly).
If variegation was always genetic it is difficult to explain reversion.
The Genus Arum - Peter Boyce (Kew Monograph), does not recognise any varieties/sub-species, but lists many proposed ones.
There are cultivars, but that is different again.
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The variegation pictured is the result of a chimera. This is genetic not a virus. Chimeras revert to their normal form all the time. Think in terms of a thornless boysenberry that becomes thorny or an orange that has partly thick skin and partly thin skin while other fruit on the same tree have all thin skin. There are so many different examples of chimeras. There are many examples of variegation that are the result of a chimera. I bet if you Google photographs of chimeras in plants you will see very similar photographs. :)
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I would like to see evidence of it being a chimera - that would take genetic testing to prove that one plant was in fact two, one inside the other.
The chimeras that I am familiar with don't appear like this at all - Sansevieria trifasciata "Whitney", and the graft chimera +Laburnocitisus. These are both extremely predictable and regular in appearance, in no way random.
Why would one half of a chimera die and leave the other unchanged?
I haven't googled it, but how would a chimera propagate to produce random offspring via seed?
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There are very simple methods to both virus index and test a plant to confirm that a chimera is likely present that are simple to perform by a home gardener. The tests are applicable in most cases and give good results where applicable. Based on this discussion some of these tests have already been performed, even if this was not the intent. Good luck with your discoveries.
BTW - In my breeding work I get "random offspring" all the time. For example some chimeras characteristics are expressed in flowers i.e. orange and yellow streaked flowers in Tithonia (I have plants with this characteristic). Other parts of the same plant will often have normal orange flowers. If selfed, seed gathered from the orange flowers will be orange. If selfed, seed gathered from the orange and yellow streaked flowers are generally orange with yellow streaks, however there can be "random offspring", just like F1 generation hybrids are very uniform, however the F2 seedlings are most often extremely random. New tomato varieties can arise from a chimera that exhibits larger fruit on one branch. The flowers of this branch need to be selfed to retain this characteristic. It is all genetic. I see this all the time in my breeding work. With a virus infested plant the results are very different. Generalized virus indexing is very easy to perform. A chimera cannot be spread through virus indexing. I recommend everyone curious find out for themselves. It is easy to do.
BTW - The plant you mention likely contains a lethal or detrimental. This would easily explain why the chimera portion dies and the rest of the plant is unharmed. Parts of chimeras often lack chlorophyll. This would be an example of a potential lethal or detrimental. Think of Cyclamen seedlings that lack chlorophyll (all white). This is a lethal - all the seedlings die. In some climates the parts of the plant that lack chlorophyll frequently burn and die -this is a detrimental.
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Jalapa mirabilis (renamed I believe?)
It isn't a chimera.
Anyone who sows hundreds or thousands of seeds each year gets weirdos, just the law of averages, and I doubt that any significant number are chimeras.
This year I have a weird Sansevieria aethiopica. Not to my taste but it will sell well if it is stable.
I mentioned a Sansevieria and +Laburnocitisus - both plants of very long history, and long life. Sansevieria trifasciata "Whitney" is very slow growing, for a S. trifasciata mutation, especially as it is dark green, so has plenty of chlorophyll.
I would be very interested in seeing any published science to support your contention. (I do mean science, not hearsay and conjecture.) And also learn about anything that can be done by the "home gardener" that will confirm definitively that more than one genotype exists within one phenotype.
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Hello Vinny,
I can definitely understand your skepticism.
This is where I am coming from:
I guess I am an old-timer. 50 years ago, well before today’s technology, farmers would bring samples of suspected diseased plants into the department of agriculture to be tested. Virus indexing was fairly simple back then. If a virus was suspected, a simple paper hole punch could be used to insert a portion of the sample into a susceptible plant to give results. This is something that a home gardener could do today. Yes, there are far more sophisticated methods used in today’s world, but the old methods can still be useful.
My university education in botany and horticulture are 50 years old; however I have put considerable effort into keeping current. Before I retired, my profession(s) required that I stay current (like an MD). Here in the U.S.A. university texts are available through our public library system. All the information I am stating can be found in university texts on the appropriate topic i.e. plant breeding, plant genetics, etc. There are also professional journals where scientists publish papers on these topics on a regular basis. In addition, there are frequent meetings, for example the meeting of the AGU (American Geophysical Union) in San Francisco each December, where scientists discuss a range of scientific topics (such as how climatic change is impacting managed and unmanaged ecosystems). Such things must certainly exist in the UK too.
Somehow in this discussion I believe that we might be conveying thoughts that can be seen differently from a different perspective. Something like Einstein’s Theory of Relativity. Maybe we are both correct based on our perspective? That is why I suggested that the readers of this thread look into the topic for themselves and come up with their own conclusions.
Anyway, I understand your skepticism, especially in today’s world of social media where there are so many bad actors and so much falsehood being propagated.
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Mariette,
thank you for your interesting photographs. here this Arum is growing slowly but reliably and it will be fun to see its descendants.
the other one you sent me, Arum creticum, grows well in the ground, but I haven't seen any flowers from it yet...
Vinny and Robert: thank you for your interesting discussion: I studied biology, but this is the kind of question that comes to me every time I see a curiosity like this.
when i was a child, i caused the transformation of about a hundred ferocactus seedlings. to combat a problem of damping-off, my dad, a farmer, had given me a systemic fungicide (at a time when phyto-sanitary products were saving the world!).
Each of these seedlings with just a few areoles received a micro-droplet (theoretically well diluted, but I was 12).
a disaster: the micro-droplet had caused a mini-hole in each cactus:
they re-bubbled afterwards, but all as monstrosities, instead of the beautiful ball cacti they should have become. I gave them to those who liked them; out of a hundred or so, only 2 returned to their original shape a year later.
So: genetic mutation?
It just goes to show how harmful plant protection products can be...
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It sounds like the fungicide was far, far, far from diluted correctly.
It will have been in an organic solvent carrier, which was probably what did the damage, not the fungicide.
As far as genetic changes go, that seems exceedingly unlikely, not least because some gained normal growth. Genetic mutations take genetic intervention to reverse, as is beginning to happen in humans, using viruses to transport "new" DNA into human cells, to "cure" genetic disease.
Monstrose and crested cacti (and succulents) are common enough without any intervention using chemicals. As above, I have a very odd Sanseveria seedling this year - they make a large root-plate after gemination - the beginning of the rhizome - and that bloated and produced two contorted leaves. In the past I had a Mamm. hernandezii that suddenly formed a crest - it was about as large as the species ever gets and plenty lusted after it, before it turned to mush.
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Vinny, I think that my pics and explanations clearly show that the variegation of Arum maculatum ´Bakovci´ is passed on to seedlings. As You started a discussion whether this variegation is caused by virus versus chimerism, I understood Your question for named varieties as one for named cultivars, which there are, not subspecies, of course.
Variegation caused by virus may be harmless and simply of decorative value, but in other cases lethal to plants, depending on the kind of virus and the constitution of the plant. Galanthus, for instance, may suffer from a virus with which they can cope, or another one which kills them. Therefore, virus-diseased snowdrops are dreaded by collectors of this species.
@ Robert: Thank You for Your valuable contributions! As a botanist and farmer, You´re of course well acquainted with the matter. Many viruses which are a problem for agricultural crops spread to ornamental plants, unfortunately.
@ Véronique: I´m glad that Arum maculatum ´Bakovci´does well for You, as many friends find it difficult to grow. Thank You, also, for mentioning chemical damage as a cause for variegation. In the past, I collected a good deal of variegated plants or some with unusual colouring of the flowers, which looked quite normal later. The reason was obviously the application of a herbicide nearby.
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Very obviously variegation is passed via seed. I have not suggested otherwise, but did state the equally obvious - it is random. I do not understand your point.
No, I did not start a conversation about virus v. chimerism.
There are essentially countless viruses in this world, probably 99.99% of them totally harmless to most living things. I supposedly had covid Q3 2020, but it was asymptomatic.
That said numerous plants are badly affected by mosaic viruses, which are generally specific to specific families - such as the one(s) affecting tobacco, potaoes and tomatoes.
Within the UK, Scotland is a preferred source for many seeds (not least seed potatoes), as aphids, the common vector for viruses, are uncommon.
Again, I am unsure of your point.
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Quite possibly the exact opposite information can be found online, this was just the first one that I happened to find -
https://tradescantia.uk/article/variegation-and-colour/
"Seeds from a variegated chimera will only have one set of genetics – which means every seedling will either be pure white (and die shortly after germinating, if it manages to germinate at all), or plain green. Tissue culture techniques which are used to mass-produce plants by cloning tiny leaf samples also usually have the same result, because any individual leaf sample can only grow into either a pure white or pure green plant."
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Sorry if my English is too poor to be understood!
My intention was to encourage Véronique to raise seedlings of Arum maculatum ´Bakovci´, as some will show yellow variegation. My aim was simply to present the facts I happened to notice.
I don't think that any vars are recognised?
Walking 100's of metres of the right hedgerow here in the UK, you can walk past literally 1000's of plants with every variation imaginable (except variegation).
Virus infection seems extremely likely as the source of variegation.
Botanical variegation of Arum maculatum is presented in form of black spots. ´Althaldensleber Park´ is a cultivar of Arum maculatum with very strong black marks.
´Spring Thing´ and ´Bakovci´ show yellow variegated leaves and are representatives of horticultural variegation. As at least ´Bakovci´passes this feature on to some of its seedlings, it seems unlikely that the variegation is caused by virus, which You regard as extremely likely.
The black spots of the botanical variegation are found in the last seedling I showed, which is definitely a seedling of ´Bakovci´. Which makes me believe, that this botanical variegation is inherited and not caused by virus. None of the many arums in my garden ever developed black spots which were not there in previous years.
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There is very little comment online about variegation being retained (or not) in seedlings from a variegated parent but the one that goes into details says that chimeras DO NOT produce variegated seedlings.
Maybe that is wrong, but the logic makes sense to me.
So that leaves genetic and virus as causes of the variegation. As the variegation is extremely variable, that would tend to favour virus.
I have to say that I had assumed that Arum "chameleon" was an A. m. cultivar, but it is not, it is an A. italicum cultivar. To all intents and purposes, that comes extremely uniform and profusely from seed, which suggests to me that it is genetic.
If "Bakovci" is a chimera, which seems unlikely, 50% of seed should not be viable. If the variegation is genetic, it should be similar when propagated via seed and seed viability should be high. If the variegation is due to virus, the variegation should be random and seed viability should be high.
Variation of the number (if any) and size of spotting on the leaves in wild, in the UK, of A. m., despite the meaning of the name, is enormous. Around here, spotting is probably rare, but I am familiar with only a small number of populations and it is a very, very common plant over much of the UK.
In common English usage, the spots would not be referred to as variegation, just as spots. In common English usage, variegation would tend to refer to pale or white markings. There is no precise meaning but talking of variegation in the UK would tend to bring a picture of a marbled and pale plant to most people's mind.
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Perhaps we should consider Arum maculatum ´Bakovci´ to be a mutation?
Arum maculatum grows wild in my region, which may be the reason why ´Bakovci´ thrives better here than in other places. Collecting hardy arums since many years, I´ve seen a good deal of variations in the leaves of Arum maculatum in Germany, Britain and the Netherlands growing wild. Plants with green or spotted leaves often grow side by side.
In the garden, where different cultivars of arum are collected, the seedlings of a special cultivar vary, as they tend to be cross-pollinated. In gardens, where only one cultivar is grown, the seedlings will look more uniform.
´Chameleon´ was offered as Arum italicum in the past, but now is regarded as a hybrid, Arum italicum x maculatum. In my garden, some seedlings look similar to the parent, but many differ and wouldn´t go as´Chameleon´.
As Arum maculatum ´Bakovci´ produces some seedlings looking similar to it, some of the stuff offered may be not of the original clone.
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Mutation would imply genetic change.
This is absolutely possible, but based on very little evidence, it is not. The balance of evidence, nothing more than that, is that it is virus infection.
Chameleon has only ever come very, very close to type here from seed (actually, my original plant was a seedling, so not strictly Chameleon at all). It's a very nice plant, whatever it is. BUT, it was nowhere near any other arum, so could only have been self-fertilised. In a garden with other arums near and flowering at the same time......................
Bakovci not being the original clone will not be the first, by a very, very, very, very long way............. for sure :)
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Hi Mariette,
2024 has brought so many unexpected changes. Slowly everything is sorting out. The ornamental portion of our garden will take many months to redesign and reorganize. I am happy that I can resume posting on the Forum occasionally.
I have been retired from employment for a salary or conducting business for a number of years now. I never enjoyed either. As for farming, agriculture, and horticulture, clearly I will never retire from these pursuits. There is so much worthwhile and fascinating research that needs to be done in these fields of interest, especially here in the Central Valley of California. Atmospheric Science has also been a passion since I was 13 years old. I will continue with this until my last days too.
As I can I will post information about the evolution of our garden here in Sacramento. I hope this will be interesting and informative. Progress with Crocus will take time, but someday I hope to have something interesting to share in this regard. Thank you.