Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Cultivation => Cultivation Problems => Topic started by: Graham Catlow on January 08, 2012, 07:04:44 PM
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Hi
I purchased some Nomocharis aperta bulbs in mid November and removed some scales in the hope I could propagate them as I had with some lilies last year.
I put them in damp perlite in a warm room and to my surprise today I have scales with roots. Some have small bulbs but others don't.
What do I do now? Do I follow the same regime as I did with the lilies and put them in the fridge for several weeks?
Graham
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Tricky time of year to be doing this, Graham. :-X
We'd keep them in the same conditions as you have so far.... hoping that bulbils will form, not just roots.
If the bulbils do begin to form before the end of February then you could move them at that time into a fridge to delay any leaf growth.
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Thanks Maggi,
I will keep an eye on them.
I didn't expect anything from them so this is a bonus.
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The potential of extra plants is not only a bonus... it's fun too, isn't it? :)
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Yes it is Maggi,
I was surprised when I managed to get the lily scales to produce new bulbs and then for them to get from small bulbs through the summer into dormancy.
I am rather more surprised with the Nomocharis and more pleased that I am at this stage. I have wanted to grow Nomocharis for some time but always thought they were a bit expensive. But I managed to get some at a decent price and now should have more in a few years time.
I am learning to be a little more patient than I used to be.
Propagating your own is definitely fun.
Graham
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Nomocharis tend not to be long lived in some cases so it is also a good idea to take seed from them and keep sowing it. 8)
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Thanks Maggi I will try that.
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Nomocharis tend not to be long lived in some cases so it is also a good idea to take seed from them and keep sowing it. 8)
But once you take scales, could it be that the plant is rejuvenated? So it will have a new start like young plants have. Is there anything known about it?
I take cuttings of the alleged biannual Coris monspeliensis and once the older plants die, I always have new ones around. So maybe it works for bulbs too??
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Nomocharis tend not to be long lived in some cases so it is also a good idea to take seed from them and keep sowing it. 8)
But once you take scales, could it be that the plant is rejuvenated? So it will have a new start like young plants have. Is there anything known about it?
I take cuttings of the alleged biannual Coris monspeliensis and once the older plants die, I always have new ones around. So maybe it works for bulbs too??
Now that is an interesting question, Hans. We have not been in the habit of propagating the Nomocharis by scales, so we will need to give it a try to see what happens to the longevity of the offspring.
I would expect that while the new bulb would live for a few years it wouldn't last too long because it is growing from already matured growth.
We have had a couple of clumps inthe garden which have managed to thricve for as long as twelve or so years, but this is not normal here. Seed is best for fresh, healthy propagation material from these plants which are painfully prone to virus.
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"I would expect that while the new bulb would live for a few years it wouldn't last too long because it is growing from already matured growth. "
Maggi - Most of our seed-grown Nomocharis date back to 1993. That's a pretty long life and a few are from 1986. We dodged many a virus bullet but I noticed one was infected last summer and unfortunately that one disappeared before it could be tossed. So now a scramble to grow seed before the rest follow suit.
johnw
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John, that's amazing..... I'll be suggesting that the world start growing them from your seed in that case 8)
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Maggi - Most were from the seedex, SRGC93-2533 to SRGC93-2541. No idea who the donors were, maybe the Youngs!
johnw
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I couldn't say, John, seems a long time ago now ::) .... but it's good news to know the SRGC Seedex can produce such long lived gems :D 8)
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I would expect that while the new bulb would live for a few years it wouldn't last too long because it is growing from already matured growth.
In effect, isn't this what happened with Dolly, the first cloned sheep? Because she was the "offspring" of an already mature sheep, it seemed her life began at the age of the parent. I'm not sure what the right words are here but I'm sure you know what I mean.
The scale thing for Nomocharis is very interesting but I'll always sow as much seed as I can. They produce it quite regularly and reliably. One gets some variation in the colouring and spotting as well.
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It's interesting how threads develop.
If the new Nomocharis bulbs developed from scales are already aged and may only last a few years is this what happens with lily bulbs developed from scales. I thought that this was a routine method for propagating lilies and was a successful way of increasing them. Why might it be different for Nomocharis?
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I don't necessarily think that nomocharis would be different from lily scales.... the premise is that the new bulb is effectively the same age as the old one... or new sheep the same age as the old sheep, as in Dolly's case.... :-\
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Isn't it likely that a scaled bulb will take any virus from its parent, and is 'aged' in that sense.
With lilies there are techniques for 'cleaning up' propagated material i.e. removing virus contamination from it.
How long vegetativley propagated stuff can go on for is interesting, will we run out of granny Smith apples one day. Some things one hears about seem to have gone on a long time, like the cuttings people take from 1000 year old trees.
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How long vegetativley propagated stuff can go on for is interesting, will we run out of granny Smith apples one day. Some things one hears about seem to have gone on a long time, like the cuttings people take from 1000 year old trees.
David - you have made my next point for me.
Dolly died from a degenerative lung disease. The argument for her dieing from age related symptoms has not been proved nor disproved - to my knowledge.
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I think the trick with Nomocharis is to dig them every couple of years - late autumn before the new roots emerge - and replant them in a fresh rich mix. Once the collection grows the chance of a virus attack is almost certain. We were just lucky. Blame the aphis and slugs. Dig, drench with boiling water, discard pots and dispose of all in the garbage no matter how traumatic.
johnw
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I think the trick with Nomocharis is to dig them every couple of years - late autumn before the new roots emerge - and replant them in a fresh rich mix.
johnw
So John, this is what you have been doing (approximately) since 1986/1993?
You certainly seem to have the knack! :) Bravo!
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This aging stuff is interesting. The concern with cloning in animals was that telomeres or small bits of extra DNA that shorten when cells divide, eventually disappear and then the cell dies. So cell life can be based on telomere length. When you clone a sheep you have a lamb that already has the old DNA of its "parent" with short telomeres. For example if a sheep was going to live to 10 years and die of old age, if you cloned that sheep when it was 8 the resulting lamb could die at 2 of old age because its DNA was old when it was born.
With plants some are short lived some are long lived. So comparing cuttings taken from 1000 year old trees to cuttings/divisions of shorter lived species is not possible. The cutting from a 1000 year old tree may live a very very long time because the original mother tree could have kept going for a long time. Some short lived plants may be able to be kept going through vegetative propagation but may become weak over time. A neat example in plants is bamboo, for some species only one or two plants were collected and propagated over the years. These plants have been distributed around the world and after many years in cultivation (100+ in some cases) almost all of the plants of 1species will mature and flower, from all corners of the world. These plants have been vegetatively propagated for many years but it never 'rejuvenated ' them, they all kept aging and matured at the same time anyway.
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I think the trick with Nomocharis is to dig them every couple of years - late autumn before the new roots emerge - and replant them in a fresh rich mix. johnw
So John, this is what you have been doing (approximately) since 1986/1993?
You certainly seem to have the knack! :) Bravo!
Rick
Unfortunately I've been a bit lazy the last two years and just getting at it now.
johnw
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This aging stuff is interesting. The concern with cloning in animals was that telomeres or small bits of extra DNA that shorten when cells divide, eventually disappear and then the cell dies. So cell life can be based on telomere length. When you clone a sheep you have a lamb that already has the old DNA of its "parent" with short telomeres. For example if a sheep was going to live to 10 years and die of old age, if you cloned that sheep when it was 8 the resulting lamb could die at 2 of old age because its DNA was old when it was born.
With plants some are short lived some are long lived. So comparing cuttings taken from 1000 year old trees to cuttings/divisions of shorter lived species is not possible. The cutting from a 1000 year old tree may live a very very long time because the original mother tree could have kept going for a long time. Some short lived plants may be able to be kept going through vegetative propagation but may become weak over time. A neat example in plants is bamboo, for some species only one or two plants were collected and propagated over the years. These plants have been distributed around the world and after many years in cultivation (100+ in some cases) almost all of the plants of 1species will mature and flower, from all corners of the world. These plants have been vegetatively propagated for many years but it never 'rejuvenated ' them, they all kept aging and matured at the same time anyway.
Thanks Bryan, that is a clear explanation!
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Clear as mud as they say... ;D. Just re read it, forgot to mention bamboo dies after flowering, but most of you know this already...
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The question is, I think, why does the Lily/nomocharis die at all. My own experience is that scale propagated plants live as long as seed propagated do. However, many lilies dislike sitting in the same place for a very long time. They decline and this is not necessarily due to virus since they are rejuvenated by moving into a fresh place. It seems to me that he soil is sooner or later becoming adverse. This could have many reasons: Too many decaying lily roots causing excess fungal activity. too many daughter bulbs competing for space and nutrients, proliferation of nematodes, exhaustion of trace elements, proliferation of other pathogens like botrytis.
A plant that is weakened by any of these causes (or even by a non-lethal virus infection) might die prematurely by a cause that would not kill a vigorous plant.
Lilium lancifolium and bulbiferum have been around, vegetatively propagated, in this country for well over a hundred years perhaps well over two hundred in the case of bulbiferum. Never the less, the individual plant will usually start to decline after five - ten years in the same place.
A related question. At what time do you successfully transplant Nomocgais?
Cheers
Göte
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The question is, I think, why does the Lily/nomocharis die at all. My own experience is that scale propagated plants live as long as seed propagated do. However, many lilies dislike sitting in the same place for a very long time. They decline and this is not necessarily due to virus since they are rejuvenated by moving into a fresh place. It seems to me that he soil is sooner or later becoming adverse. This could have many reasons: Too many decaying lily roots causing excess fungal activity. too many daughter bulbs competing for space and nutrients, proliferation of nematodes, exhaustion of trace elements, proliferation of other pathogens like botrytis.
A plant that is weakened by any of these causes (or even by a non-lethal virus infection) might die prematurely by a cause that would not kill a vigorous plant.
Lilium lancifolium and bulbiferum have been around, vegetatively propagated, in this country for well over a hundred years perhaps well over two hundred in the case of bulbiferum. Never the less, the individual plant will usually start to decline after five - ten years in the same place.
A related question. At what time do you successfully transplant Nomocgais?
Cheers
Göte
Göte - It is coincidental you should also mention L. bulbiferum. We were repotting some Nomocharis bulbs in the last few days and noted a strange rotted "stem" at the base of the Nomocharis bulbs, over time this rots and I wonder if that can lead to the demise of the bulbs left in situ for a long time - as well as rotted roots & nutrient depeltion as you mention. L. bulbiferum we noted had the same sort of "stem" at the base. Can anyone explain this structure, seems I noticed it on another lily once before?
Only two offsets were found in all the Nomocharis pots.
We transplant in late autumn but by February bulbs in pots are making new roots so they have to be done no later than right about now.
johnw
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Back to the original question - only things have moved on a little. Six days on and there are now leaves forming on three, roots and nothing else on others and roots just appearing on others. Three stages. What do I do now please :-\
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Graham
I think you now have to plant, them at least the ones with green growth, into a pot in a suitable growing medium- . A humus rich well drained one similar to a seed compost - I would use a mix of sand, grit and leaf mould.
Then you will need to keep them growing on in the cool but protect them from the frost.
The emerging leaves do not need to be above ground as they will continue to grow up through the compost.
The trouble is that they are coming into growth way to early in the season.
Lesson to take from this is in future years take the scale cutting later like around now then they should come into growth around the normal time for Nomocharis.
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Ian, thank you for this advice which I will follow tomorrow.
I received the bulbs in November and potted them immediately which is why I took the opportunity to take the scales then.
I'm not sure I will do it again but will also follow your advice and do it at this time of the year if I do.
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Isn't it likely that a scaled bulb will take any virus from its parent, and is 'aged' in that sense.
With lilies there are techniques for 'cleaning up' propagated material i.e. removing virus contamination from it.
David,
Yes, a scale propagated lily will most certainly inherit any virus infection.
Since it is possible to clean a lily by meristem culture I assume it would be possible with Nomocharis as well. It seems that the virus infects slower than the growing tip grows on. It is not 100% successful so it might be necessary to repeat the procedure.
The procedure is more expensive and tedious than rising new stock from seed so it only makes sense in the case of valuable clonally propagated cultivars.
"Cleaned" specimen of old cultivars have been shown to be more vigorous so it is possible that there is a pool of virus in some commercially available lily cultivars.
Premature death in some perennials seems to be connected with premature flowering. Typical in some of the blue Meconopsis. If this is a contributing factor it would only affect a mother plant not the scaled progeny. The mechanism seems to be that a Meconopsis that flowers too early has not had time to develop side shoots and the flowering shoot will not do that. (perhaps a similar mechanism that prevents Trilliums from early cumping) Strangely enough I have made observations that hint that it is possible to take cuttings from the flowering stem. However, since this will prevent any formation of seeds it is not a very good idea.
Cheers
Göte