Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Bulbs General => Topic started by: Alex on February 05, 2012, 02:30:51 PM
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I don't think anyone else has started this, so....
Fritillaria striata (including a view inside the flower to show the markings), F. ariana (an Ok form, unfortunately the really beautiful form I had rotted over Summer and I never got fertile seed from it) and F. chitralensis from Janis, which seems to be opening a little prematurely. This afflicts a few Frits (like F. alburyana) in my relatively warm greenhouse.
Alex
{edit by maggi to turn photo (last) of inside of Frit. striata flower}
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I covet that striata, Alex... it is gorgeous. Super pictures.
Quite a few of the frits will try to flower too soon ( even underground in the case of alburyana) if they are too "cosy".
Try keeping them cooler and only bringing them into warmer conditions when the leaf growth is well begun.
I must complain to you though ;).... your glasshouse is SO clean and tidy :o.... you're making us look bad! ;D
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My sympathy goes out to you Maggie I covet the striata too :-[
A lovely set Alex, it will be another week or two before I have any frits in flower.
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I wish the striata would put out offsets like liliacea and co. do, but 6 years and nothing. No seed either.
I'd *love* to get hold of another, or even some pollen to try for seed. I am so keen to propagate it, I'm thinking of taking a few scales off the bulb this Summer, but I don't think I'm brave enough.
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I wish the striata would put out offsets like liliacea and co. do, but 6 years and nothing. No seed either.
I'd *love* to get hold of another, or even some pollen to try for seed. I am so keen to propagate it, I'm thinking of taking a few scales off the bulb this Summer, but I don't think I'm brave enough.
Ian's chitralensis was like that for years. Did give some seed but resolutely refused to split. I can't remember now if he did finally score the base... but it did eventually split.
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Raddeana did the same here, the bulb just kept getting bigger. I stored some big pots of dormant bulbs in a "borrowed " green house one Summer. The owner of the greenhouse stuck canes into the pots to support her tomato plants. Right through the bulb. It divided into three and flowerd the following spring. I dont borrow that green house any more though!
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;D
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Bright and early to have frits in february.
Welcome to the SRGC Ron!
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;D
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Wow, nice collection Alex! :o
Ron, your F. koidzumiana is very cute! I just sowed some seeds this year; I was surprised that the seeds looked a bit different from other Fritillaria that I know. Very small... They were dried seeds, so I'm not expecting a lot, but if I would get some to germinate, I would be very happy! Has anybody had good luck with dried Japanese Fritillaria seeds?
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;D
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Hi Ron, I hope your plants will set seed for you! Please keep me posted on how they do!
I have got lots of germination from five-year-old Erythronium oregonum seeds right now and (unexpectedly) I also have quite a few seeds from F. eastwoodiae collected in 2005 and sowed last fall that are also germinating. I know Japanese Fritillaria seeds don't like to be dry, and maybe the fact that my old seeds are germinating is just random luck, but I'm hoping it will happen again! :)
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;D
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Thanks for the info about F. eastwoodiae, Ron! I love lots of plants but Fritillaria is one of my favorites, so I would very much appreciate your input! :)
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Are you a member of the Frit Group Peppa?
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Are you a member of the Frit Group Peppa?
See here: http://www.fritillaria.org.uk/
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Are you a member of the Frit Group Peppa?
Not yet. :-\ Are you, Ron? If so, what do you think about it?
Thanks for the link, Maggi!
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;D
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Definately worth joining, and attending the spring meeting at Wisley, on 18th March. I should have a few pots redy to take too.. 8)
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Definately worth joining, and attending the spring meeting at Wisley, on 18th March. I should have a few pots redy to take too.. 8)
Too far for you to attend, I think, Peppa, but for those closer.... here are the details of that meeting on 18th March:
Fritillaria Group Spring Show and Display
Venue: HILLSIDE EVENTS CENTRE, RHS GARDEN, WISLEY, SURREY.
The theme will be: FRITILLARIA BULB CULTIVATION
Speakers: Paul Cumbleton (10am): "Tips, Tricks and Technology"
Rannveig Wallis (2 pm): "Maintaining a Bulb Collection"
Doors open 9am for Coffee.
Plants and Bulbs will be on sale during the day
Lunch break between 12.30 and 2pm
Raffle 3.30pm
Close of Show 4pm
Photographic displays will be on view in the Main Hall and Garden Room
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Thanks for the info, Ron, Peter, and Maggi! There are several societies that I have been seriously considering joining, and this is one of them. I need to ask them how to pay for my membership from overseas, however...
Too far for you to attend, I think, Peppa, but for those closer.... here are the details of that meeting
I wish I was living next to to the RHS Garden (anyone have any flats for rent? Just kidding... :)). Peter, please post pictures of your plants on display! Looking forward to seeing them!
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Peppa, I pay for my sub to the Fritillaria Group by sending the Treasurer a bank note for 20 UK pounds which pays my sub of 9 pounds and leaves 11 pounds (sorry, I haev't got the right symbols on my key board) for 22 packets of seed. Mr Treasurer lets Mr Seed Exchange know that both the sub and the seed money are paid.
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Hi Lesley,thanks for the tip! I managed to dig up a GBP 20 pound note that my husband picked up several years ago while travelling. The only problem is that, looking at the internet, it has been superseded by a new design. (The one I have has Edward Elgar on the back.) According to what I've read, this bill can be changed, but only at the Bank of England... I'm not sure if the group would be happy to receive this, or if I should consider some other payment method. Seems like I need to get hold of someone in the group to confirm...
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;D
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The only problem is that, looking at the internet, it has been superseded by a new design. (The one I have has Edward Elgar on the back.)
I didn't notice what was on the back of my last one. Elton John maybe? ;D
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I will contact Mrs. Charman about the payment. Thanks very much for helping me out, Ron!
The only problem is that, looking at the internet, it has been superseded by a new design. (The one I have has Edward Elgar on the back.)
I didn't notice what was on the back of my last one. Elton John maybe? ;D
;D ;D ;D
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F. pluriflora - looking a little diminished this year. I let it set seed for a couple of years.
I'm wondering what has happened to my F. recurva - I thought it is usually up by now.
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;D
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Thanks. I hope the recurva is ok too. It's been flowering regularly for about 10 years and last year it was two spikes and lots of "tinies"
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;D
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;D
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;D
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Both look great!
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;D
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;D
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;D
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well of course I wouldn't know because of course I wouldn't taken the pot out, dug a little hole, dug a bigger one, tipped out half the compost....er....
somethings coming up. just as well I did have a look because it seems that although the top was moist (in fact I thought I might of overwatered it was dry half way down the pot.
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Still very keen to get an ID for this, which was quite widely sold as F. sp. Pulkhakim (Afghanistan) last year - supposedly a new Rhinopetalum. Does it have a name yet, as far as anyone knows?
Alex
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;D
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A few frits in the bulb house today
The first two I need help with identification.
The third is Fritillaria strausii
The fourth is Fritillaria zagrica
and the last is Fritillaria crassifolia
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Looking splendid Arthur ! 8)
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And there are more :)
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;D
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Lovely Art, ;D. Greedy for more :o
Could the second plant be F.minuta. Always very difficult ( if not impossible with some species ) from pictures, but it seems very F.minuta like to me, ;)
I sincerely hope not - really not fond of it
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My money would be on F.assyriaca for the first one. If it is and you don't like it can I have 'first dibs'!!? ;D ;D ;)
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Ron
That is one of MY favourite frits :)
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Just my luck! :'( :'( :'(
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A few frits in the bulb house today
The first two I need help with identification.
The third is Fritillaria strausii
The fourth is Fritillaria zagrica
and the last is Fritillaria crassifolia
No 1. - probably F. elwesii; yes, if it has a very fat stigma.
No 2. - Possibly F. minuta.
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A couple of frits out here;
F yumanensis sent to me by a kind person in Singapore, slightly different to the ones around -that presumably origionate from Chen Yi? I believe that it is widely cultivated (for food?) in China.
and Fritilaria ariana
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A couple of frits out here;
F yumanensis sent to me by a kind person in Singapore, slightly different to the ones around -that presumably origionate from Chen Yi? I believe that it is widely cultivated (for food?) in China.
and Fritilaria ariana
F. yuminensis is cultivated in China for medicinal use. See:
www.kew.org/science/ecbot/papers/leon2009fritillaria.pdf
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Thanks Gerry, It seems that there are various forms too. I will try to get a better picture of the individual flowers when the sun is not so bright.
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F. yuminensis is one of the later ones here. Sniff it , Peter, it has a lovely scent.
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Thanks, I will Maggie.
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F.pudica.
A couple of the earlier forms flowering here today. Some of the other forms are just poking through or just coming into bud.
Most of my forms are of the yellow colour ( although I have 'wild seedlings' that I am hopeful of). Does anyone grow any of the deep orange or brown forms, please? I dont mean those that turn to these colours as they age, as they all seem to do that, but those that start out darker.
Form 1.
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Form 2.
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Fritillaria yuminensis has been up in the garden since December, probably fooled by the mild and wet weather, but it fortunately doesn't look like the January cold (-16C) did any harm to them. My bulbs are from the nursery of Duan Xian-Zhen, through fellow forumist Yijia Wang, I think that's where Catch and Chen Yi sourced their bulbs in the past as well.
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Some very nice frits at the moment.
My only flowering one today
Fritillaria crassifolia
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That's a little beauty Tony. ;D
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thanks Ron.
I collected it in 1993 and still only one!
Interesting that it flowered a full month later in 2011 and a further month later in 2010-middle of April
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I thought it was an unusual one Tony, ;). I am not suprised that it caught your eye, :o. Was it collected at a particularly high altitude? It is unusual as you say for them to move that much isn't it? I gather that you've had no luck with selfing for seed either? Its not unusual for some forms to be very slow though. Good luck for the future with it :)
Edit - Oops! For some reason I read 1993 and brain registered 2003! Still would be a long enough time for adjustment and multiplication, but 18+ years !! How strange ......
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My Frits are flowering earlier this yera.
Ron
Here are some more Frit crassifolias from the Tendurek pass - someone thought they might be michailovskyi, so I include a Frit michailovskyi to compare
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Arthur when we found them we also thought they were michailovskyi
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Lovely pictures Arthur. :) Was the F. michailovskyi on the same trip? same area? Why is this one F.michailovskyi? How do we physically differentiate this from F. crassifolia kurdica ? Perhaps someone can explain? On his excellent web site 'Fritillaria Icones' (http://www.fritillariaicones.com/icones/kurdica.html (http://www.fritillariaicones.com/icones/kurdica.html)), Dr.Lawrence Hill has a description and explanation of F.crassifolia kurdica, by Martin Rix. Unfortunately the detail is not the same for F. michailovskyi, and so we cannot compare using this resource alone. Similarly Bob Charman wrote a piece in Fritillaria Group Journal # 26, again highlighting the confusion. Similarly a description of F.crassifolia kurdica is given, but no direct written comparison with F. michailovskyi. I am not criticising either of these works ( I admire both ), just trying to show that there is much confusion in this area for many people. Usually we can fall back on seed pods ( I have had both and to me they are identical ), nectaries ( as far as I have seen they are the same ), style division ( divided trifid in both ) ...?
Was your plant from Tendurek Pass / Van area also Tony. I thought this one stood out because all others I have seen with these yellow tips have a yellowish line down the petal to the tip also, in varying degrees.
Maybe your plant is so happy in its situation Tony, that it feels no need to reproduce, ;D
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Rix in Flora of Turkey states that probable hybrids between the two are known to exist in Iran.
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I suspect it may all come down to differences in the sulcus membrane of the pollen grains, ??? ::) ???
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Rix in Flora of Turkey states that probable hybrids between the two are known to exist in Iran.
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He also states that it is strongly different to crassifolia in colour which it clearly is not if they can be mistaken for each other.Both species seem very variable in colour.
Ron mine is from the same site as Arthur's and the well known sites for where it was originally discovered in Turkey are about a hundred miles away but if it is known from Iran it must spread over the same area as . Mine will not self pollinate.
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Are you thinking sterile hybrid Tony? Or possibly they are all one and the same very variable plant? Certainly it seems on the macro level some F.crassifolia kurdica and F.michailovskyi are very difficult to differentiate.
Here are two in my Frit house today that aren't, (visually that is !!).
F. crassifolia kurdica Iran
F. michailovskyi
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or a more chequer pattern F.michailovskyi ...
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A few frits in the bulb house today
The first two I need help with identification.
The third is Fritillaria strausii
The fourth is Fritillaria zagrica
and the last is Fritillaria crassifolia
Arthur, I think the first one is Frit. elwesii and the second can be Frit. minuta
Wim
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Get so used to using a name and then ..... :'(. I've only just noticed that Kew say F.crassifolia kurdica is a synonym of F.kurdica. :o :o :o
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My F.crassifolia kurdica X michailovskyi primary hybrid was self fertile and from a plant with flowers intermediate between both parents I have F1 and F2, which are much more variable.
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Did you find much variation when you 'selfed' your F. crassifolia kurdica and your F.michailovskyi Simon ?
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Yes there was variation from my F.crassifolia kurdica- I'd be surprised if any offspring of this kind of Frit exactly resembled its parent.
I posted pics here a few years ago of the hybrid F1s. The original hybrid parent looked like F.michailovskyi, but with more chequering in the 'brown' part of the flower. The offspring were more like F.crassifolia kurdica, with the darkest form having much more chequering than the parent.
If wild F.michailovskyi populations are as variable as F.pontica is here, then there will surely be more forms out there than those written about or seen in books. The forms we have in cultivation are, I am sure, the ones which caught the eye of their collector. I am sure that many more were overlooked, because they didn't jump out and say "Dig me up" as it were. ::)
Also if you think about it- it wouldn't take many wild hybridisation events to produce wild populations with quite variable forms.
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Thanks Simon, very interesting. :)
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http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4972.msg148614#msg148614 (http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4972.msg148614#msg148614)
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Thanks for the link- I'd lost those pics when a hard drive died!!
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:). Thanks for posting them initially! ;)
Glad it worked out for you too, 8)
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Lovely pictures Arthur. :) Was the F. michailovskyi on the same trip? same area?
The michailovskyi was from a site probably 100 miles from the crassifolia kurdica.
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A few frits in the bulb house today
The first two I need help with identification.
It has been suggested that 9647 could be Frit elwesii - not aware this grows in Iran. It does not have a fused stigma so cannot be assyriaca.
9615 does have a fused, club shaped stigma, and is assyriaca.
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:o Very good Art. Any up to date pics of them? Are they ones you collected? Fascinating, and just goes to show how hard photo I'D'ing is!.
Thanks for the info on the crassifolia etc. :)
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Three pictures which have nothing to do with 2012. They are in response to a PM sent to me by ronm.
The middle one is (so far as I am aware,) a seedling from the first, but possibly the other parent being the third. The more I look at them the less likely I think that is. But the second is a first flower in a pot of seedlings labelled as michailovskyi and I can't think of what else it could be. Any suggestions would be welcome.
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I wouldn't be concerned by the flaring flower Lesley. A lot of mine, seed raised and bought as bulbs, do this. Some remain tight as well.
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F. pluriflora today.
Alex
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Oh yes Alex, well grown!! 8) 8). ;D
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Thanks Ron, I'll be interested to see what comes in the pot this year. They should have been repotted of course but there's been too much else to get everything done. Already a lot of bulbs are well rooted, probably due to the damp summer we've had.
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In a way I hope you didn't manage to repot it Lesley, as I see there is another in the same pot that was about to flower. It would be most interesting to see the two together. Thanks again for taking the trouble to check it out. :) :)
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It must have flowered all right but I've no recollection of what it was like. Will go out today and repot the lot. (Quite underground now here of course but very likely starting to root.)
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F. pluriflora today.
Alex
Very pretty!
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F.carica.
Flower opened yesterday. Another very variable species. This one has the nice orange edges to the yellow petals. A little different to many which are quite uniform in (various ) shade (s).
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F.pinardii.
I bought this as a very small bulb at the Frit Group AGM in autumn last year. The bulb was so tiny I didn't expect a flower this year. I didn't (stupidly!) get the name of the person who sold me it, ( I like entire records for my Frit's). The packet was labelled as F. whittallii alpina. To my knowledge there is no such thing, but I bought out of curiosity. Well as you can see its flowered and is a pale flowered F. pinardii. Which is fine for me, (new genes, :)). I wonder if anyone knows my vendors name. He was selling his plants next to Choice Landscapes, and was local to the Loughborough venue. Please PM me if you can identify him. I stress I am very pleased with the plant, ;D. Also, does anyone know how this plant could have received this F.w.alpina name please. I've searched high and low and can find no reference to it anywhere. Closest I have got is that F.alpina is a synonym of F. pinardii pinardii. Pretty close but where did the whittallii bit come in?
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F.carica.
Flower opened yesterday. Another very variable species. This one has the nice orange edges to the yellow petals. A little different to many which are quite uniform in (various ) shade (s).
A very nice form, love it.
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Some frits in the bulb house yesterday
The frit gibbosa was bought from Norman Stevens in 2007 as one of a batch of seedlings. This year 3 flowered - all different - unfortunately very difficult to photograph.
The frit michailovskyi were bought from Augis bulbs following a recommendation on the Forum. I am delighted with the quality of all bulbs bought - this is one of 3 pots.
The frit rhodakanakis was won in a frit group auction several years ago and has flowered every year.
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Excellent Arthur, ;D
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Rhinopetalum /Fritillaria
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............. were bought from Augis bulbs following a recommendation on the Forum. I am delighted with the quality of all bulbs bought - this is one of 3 pots........
Seconded, Augis Bulbs material is of the highest quality. Fully recommended.
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Jan
Are these pictures of your nursery - I am sure you would find many customers on this forum, starting with me :) ;D :)
Beautiful plants that look well grown - and generally unobtainable
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Rhinopetalum bucharicum
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Rhinopetalum sp.
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I love this pink Fritillaria species Jan !!! :D
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Rhinopetalum /Fritillaria
Oh My God!
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I like your rhodokanakus Arthur.
Jan, the Rhinopetalum seeds you sent me in 2010 are nearly all growing well, Thankyou! (So are the Corydalis...)
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Rhinopetalum bucharicum
OMG :o It looked like a Campanula thyrsoides on steroids!
Can we visit your place, Jan? ;D
cheers
fermi
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My first Frit this year is Fritillaria stenanthera.
Poul
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Poul, very nice, looks like a clone of the steppes of Kazakhstan
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Rhinopetalum /Fritillaria
This and the crocus too! Extraordinary!
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Poul, very nice, looks like a clone of the steppes of Kazakhstan
Thank you Jan! Unfortunately I don't know the origin of my clone.
Poul
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Thank you Gerry, I try to
Poul, I'm your clone in its greenhouse
Photo Rh. stenantherum album
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The death of David King (reported on the 'Noticeboard') is very sad news. I rememember a talk by him on N. American frits at the Frit Group some years ago; the photos were superb. He also had a very fine chapter in Bulbs of North America.
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Very nice white Jan.
pictures this morning
These faciated stenanthera and eduardii were seedlings I bought from Parnham bungalow nursery 12 years ago, The seedling pot is from Jan's seed in 2010. sorry for the wrong name on one of the pictures - corrected now
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Interestingly Rhinopetalum
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Is it double flowerd every year?
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Yes, but does not seed 17 years. I have about 100 plants, but only the Flore Plena
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Fritillaria armena in the garden.
Growing on three different spots in the garden. All of them were bulbils planted in 2006 after my three bulbs decided not to be happy in a pot. I initially thought I lost them, but found the bulbils instead. This is the result after planting them in the garden almost six years ago and leave them by themselves. Later I will take some pictures when they are flowering.
Cheers,
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healthy green color and green hands ;D
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A few frits in flower today.
1 & 2. Fritillaria bucharica first time with this for me, I can see a few more being acquired this autumn
3. Fritillaria michailovskyii I've had this flowering since early January, finally it gave me a worthwhile shot ;D
4.5 & 6. Fritillaria raddeana Again a first timer, acquired because it's reputed to be better at reflowering than F. imperialis
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Fred beautiful!! large white flowers, you know the origin?
I am very similar to England
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Very nice Fritillaria Fred.
Are you new to growing them? You chose some good species to start with if you are. Glad to hear you are enjoying them.
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healthy green color and green hands ;D
They should've been greener (my hands) and kept the armena happy in their pot :-[. I am a bit of disaster with keeping bulbs and corms healthy in a pot so my garden is my true big friend for keeping nice things going....and if it doesn't survive my garden conditions I move on and drop the plant from my want list :'(
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Fred beautiful!! large white flowers, you know the origin?
Jan, if you mean the F. bucharica, it was sourced from Kevin Pratt, I don't know his source.
Very nice Fritillaria Fred.
Are you new to growing them? You chose some good species to start with if you are. Glad to hear you are enjoying them.
I've had some Fritillaria for years Ron.
Last autumn I decided I didn't have enough :D
The way it's going, this autumn will be the same.
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I grow most of them Fred, so let me know in summer if there is something you are looking for. I usually have a few bits and pieces spare.
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Plants grown in open soil. it's natural. The pots have only F.regelii, loves, special land
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Very nice Jan. :)
I am definately going to 'steal' your hedge cuttings covering method on my open beds this year. I have tons of 'Leylandii' trimmings each year and have previously composted them for use in our 'wild butterfly etc, garden'. Thi syear I will trim them as much bigger branches and lay on my open bulb beds for protection. Simplessss. 8) 8)
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Ron, I was always ready to help ;D ;D ;D
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Thanks Jan. ;)
I think you have ;D ;D
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my woods F.raddeana
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Sorry, I am ashamed :-[ :-[
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Nice clump Jan!
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Thank you, from seeds
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Sorry Jan, :( I dont understand. ??? ??? You are ashamed for growing beautiful plants, beautifully well?
You shouldn't be, you grow them nearly as well as I do ... ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
If you are worried about posting and making a mistake in this process .... we all do that all the time. Maggi usually saves us ;D ;D
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friends, I am amateur in English, I make mistakes :-*
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I grew mine from seeds too, I killed the bulb I bought, but now the seedlings are big enough to flower. :D
Your English is ok Jan. We know it is hard work for you.
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I am professional in English and I make mistakes all the time!! :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
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thank you for your tolerance. sown each year a large number of seeds, I have grown from the seeds of Juno popovii 14 years old
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Now I know the Fritt season has started for real!! About a dozen of these beauties in the Fritt house today. Good job I bag the flowers I want to come true ;)
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A few of the commoner ones today.
F. hermonis
F. minuta - this one especially for Art600 ;D
F.graeca - this is a much larger plant and flower than any of the others I have. It is one of the first I bought and I cannot for the life of me remember where I got it. It is planted deep in a 3 litre pot. Performs every year. Seed for the first time last year. Three pots full of seedlings now. ;D
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nice bright minuta Ron.
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Thanks Peter. I think it has an undeserved reputation for being 'measly' and 'boring'. Again ( like most of these Fritss ) it is quite variable in stature and colour, colour ranging with me from brick red to almost pink. It seems that it is often confused with some variations of F. pinardii, but I think next to each other they appear very different.
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I don't know the two species well enough to comment on their relationship Ron, but my general impression is of rather dull coloured flowers for both.
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That is true Peter.
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Thank you Ron - nice specimen but still not a favourite.
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Maybe not a favourite but still lovely. Perhaps when there are such gems like alburyana, aurea et al, we expect every one to be outstanding. My main complaint about minuta is that for me it produces masses of foliage and very few flowers.
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Exactly what I have found
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Second year flowering from seed, Fritillaria kotschyana.
Hope the name is correct.
Mike
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Very impressive Mike.
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It probably is right Mike. F.kotschyana is a very variable species ( yes .. another one! ) and similar to a few others ( especially on a photograph ). But in this one the size of the flower, cf the overall plant, the way the leaves are held it looks right to me. It has been commonly available for a number of years and is produced in large numbers, so I see no reason for anyone to do anything shady when it comes to this plant. ;)
Mr. Ian Young named one selection F.kotschyana 'Craigton Max', I believe from second generation Iranian seed. So if anyone can positive ID your plant I think the right people are about on here. 8)
There is also an excellent article by R&R Wallis in the most recent Frit Group Journal, on this species.
Lesley and Arthur, what cultural conditions do you have for your F.minuta, please? I had this trouble when I first started but now gets flowers most years on my seed raised plants. I dont let them dry out, keeping them just moist in summer. Then in cold shade over winter, until I see the first noses, then into as much sun as I can give. My original bulbs were very bad at flowering even under this regime.
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My F.minuta are out the garden, Ron.
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Do they flower regularly for you Simon?
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Second year flowering from seed, Fritillaria kotschyana.
Hope the name is correct.
Mike
I would say you have the right plant Mike, it is a variable species and as Ron says I named a selection 'Craigton Max' some years ago.
It has large flowers with quite a lot of green and recurving tips.
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Ian & Ron
Thankyou both for the info.
Ian your Craigton Max is brilliant.
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Ron, my F. minuta is in a pot but out in all weathers with all the others. The compost is humusy/gritty, same as for most. However, they do need repotting and rarely get it and also probably could do with a good dressing of potash. I could do this now though I've repotted a few over this last week and found every one well rooted so I dont want to disturb too much. It's well into an early autumn here now, frost on my car this morning.
I've seen minuta growing in alpine house conditions in Christchurch and there too it it was all foliage and only a couple of flowers.
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Maybe the form Lesley., Don't know. As I said my original bulbs were rubbish at reflowering, but now my own selfed seedlings are really good. I know they aren't hybrids, but maybe the weaker ones are selected against during the seed maturation process. Was your original stock from seed?
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I'm not sure how variable cultivated plants of F. kotschyana actually are. All the plants I have seen have been very similar, the only obvious difference being in the length of the bell; Mike's plants seem to have a relatively short bell. Rix [Kew Bull. 29 (4), 1974] refers to an uncommon form without fascia collected by Paul Furse; I have never seen this. In passing, I might note that Rix regards F. grandiflora (no fascia & known only from the vicinity of Lerik) as a subspecies of F. kotschyana. This position was adopted by Bob Wallis a few years ago but I have no idea whether he still thinks this.
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Someone just PM 'd me and said maybe your plants were too happy Lesley. Maybe you are too good to them? More stress?
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For them obviously !! ;)
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Mine are from seed Ron, yes. They in turn have never set seed. They are well dried over summer and the bulbs are always plump and good-looking but maybe they need a little more moisture while dormant?
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I would try it Lesley, maybe just on a couple of bulbs?
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May I ask Ian ( Young ) about F.involucrata please.
I am trying to put together some comparative type work on the bulbs of Fritillaria, and am currently gathering information together on this species. I came across today in Bulb Log 33 - 13th August 08, a picture of F.involucrata with 'antlers' on the bulb. Did this turn out to be F.pontica ? Thanks in advance.
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While at Loughborough I had an urge - to start collecting Frits
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May I ask Ian ( Young ) about F.involucrata please.
I am trying to put together some comparative type work on the bulbs of Fritillaria, and am currently gathering information together on this species. I came across today in Bulb Log 33 - 13th August 08, a picture of F.involucrata with 'antlers' on the bulb. Did this turn out to be F.pontica ? Thanks in advance.
Ian is away recording a radio programme, Ron..... but I've had a search around the frit house and yes, that pot is now ID'd as pontica.
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Thought it would be Maggi, but really had to ask. Thank you. :)
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F.stribrnyi
Outside of the Americans, I think this is my favourite Frit. I recognise that it is one that only a true 'Frit Fancier' will get excited about. I have found it impossible to capture the grace and elegance of this plant, so apologies for the poor pictures! :( :(. It is also one of the few Frits to have a pleasant sweet honey like smell.
This ( and two youngsters in the same pot ) are all that is left from plants that arose from Bulgarian seed over 15 years ago. I managed to get this 5 years ago from the friends who had sowed the seed. They have since lost all of their plants, :(. It is one of the first plants to show a 'nose' in the winter, but grows really slowly, weaving about as it does so. Last year it had started to grow under the soil when the pot froze, and remained frozen for weeks. Nothing showed after the thaw so I removed the top of the soil, to find a tangle of pale green / yellow mush on a short stalk. I didn't replace the top soil, but the plant didn't do much after that and eventually dried out. The remaining bulb was tiny, with two minuscule white balls attached which I removed and moved away in the same pot. I hoped for at least a juvenile leaf again this year. I needn't have worried. For me it is amazing. As good as ever this year. Just shows that where there is a vestige of life, never give up. ;D ;D ;D.
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Hi Ron- would it be possible to take a picture looking up into the flower?
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LOL, I can try. But I dont think I'll get enough definition for what you are looking for, very smooth slender style etc. I dont have a very good camera, prefer to spend on plants ;D
Edit - Its not even my camera ..... I bought it for Nora for Christmas ...
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Yes, I appreciate it is not the best shape of flower to take an up-skirt [or should that be up-kilt ;D ] shot of, but I was interested to see how it compares to some other Frits we know here in Bulgaria.
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You could always try a mirror: place below the flower, at a slight angle, so you can photograph the reflection of the interior of the flower........ :)
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You could always try a mirror: place below the flower, at a slight angle, so you can photograph the reflection of the interior of the flower........ :)
What a simple, clever idea Maggi. Why didn't I think of that?
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::) ::) ::)
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You could always try a mirror: place below the flower, at a slight angle, so you can photograph the reflection of the interior of the flower........ :)
Maggi, does this speak of too many wild nights out on Union Street? ;)
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You could always try a mirror: place below the flower, at a slight angle, so you can photograph the reflection of the interior of the flower........ :)
Maggi, does this speak of too many wild nights out on Union Street? ;)
Dunno, Simon.... can't remember......... :P
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Didn't realise that this was the first time for this species on the forum. 8)
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Neither did I, Ron. Congratulations!
I think it may have appeared in our late, lamented previous forum archive. :-\ :'(
The Bulgarians think enough of it to give it a stamp:
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Hardly suprising to me Maggi. It is a beautiful thing. 8) 8)
Is the stamp still available?
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I don't think so, Ron... it "looks" quite old fashioned... I found it on a Japanese website so I'm none the wiser. :-[
I like these floral stamps.
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Yes, me too !!
Interestingly the best one I have is of Pinguicula ramosa with a bronze medal of same and substantial literature about such. Sent to me many years ago from a Japanese friend in my Pinguicula days. I treasure it very very highly. ;D ;D
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Sadly the stamps are just about the only pictures I have ever seen of Bulgarian F.stribrnyi.
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But are they still available Simon? The stamps that is.
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Sadly the stamps are just about the only pictures I have ever seen of Bulgarian F.stribrnyi
Until today of course ;) ;).
Will PM details tomorrow.
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I haven't seen them here [the stamps] and I don't think the Post Office do First Day Covers either- so you'd have to check online auctions.
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F. stribryni - BULB LOG 17 --- 23rd April 2008
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F. stribrnyi - BULB LOG 17 --- 23rd April 2008
http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2008/230408/log.html - so it is, Gerry. ;)
We have a paler form as well....but Ian can't lay hands on a photo. :-X
Has anyone seen one the colour shown in the stamp?
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Maggi,
The form I grow is predominantly red-brown with a green "keel" down the middle of each petal, thicker on the outer petals and thinner on the inner ones. Still not quite like the stamp though, which shows almost a pinkish tinge and much more flared?
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F. stribryni - BULB LOG 17 --- 23rd April 2008
http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2008/230408/log.html - so it is, Gerry. ;)
We have a paler form as well....but Ian can't lay hands on a photo. :-X
Has anyone seen one the colour shown in the stamp?
The capsule - winged - is shown in:
BULB LOG 23 --- 4th June 08
If I remember correctly, the plant I had many years ago (from Norman Stevens) was predominantly green with some purple. Rix describes the flower colour as "outside purple or glaucous green edged purple; inside yellowish edged purple, not tessellated".
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This is a link to the Red Data Book for Bulgaria- only a drawing of the flower - but darker with a green stripe
http://e-ecodb.bas.bg/rdb/en/vol1/Fristrib.html (http://e-ecodb.bas.bg/rdb/en/vol1/Fristrib.html)
Dimitar Peev in his book "Diva Krasota" describes it as 20-30cm high with fragile stems, lanceolate leaves, brownish flowers with a nectar bearing dimple.
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The correct spelling appears to be F. stribrnyi, apparently after the gentleman who first described it from Bulgaria, Plovdiv, Nova Mahala, 1892. (Rix, Kew Bull, 1978, p585)
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More on Fritillaria stribrnyi.....
Aha! Found the paler version... http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/220403/log.html
Lighter form and a darker seedling:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/logdir/2009May061241611658BULB_LOG_18.pdf
seed pods, as mentioned by Gerry : http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2008/040608/log.html
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Excellent.
Thanks Maggi ;). Really hoping for seed this year.
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I think V. Pilous lists seed. He certainly did a few years back. That's where I got mine from. When my little round thingy arrived from Roumania a week or two ago, the package had stamps with forget-me-nots on them and I was sent a beautiful stamp recently from the Czech Republic (I think the stamp was sent from R. of I?) with a lovely iris on it. Should have started collecing flower stamps instead of plants. Less expensive in the long run.
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A few updates ;D
1 & 2 Fritillaria bucharica this just gets better and better ;D
3.& 4 Fritillaria raddeana
5 Fritillaria michailovskyi
6 Fritillaria uva-vulpis, these were supplied as Fritillaria graeca :( ::) that is very annoying.
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Very Nice Fred. :) :)
It is very very annoying when that happens as it, in most instances, cannot be a case of misstaken identity >:(. At best it is total incompetence and at worst premeditated fraud. I hope you will let them know. I have had the same this year with three bulbs of F.pinardii 'Ole Sondehause'. I don't much care for named forms etc. but thought I would try this one as it is obviously F.pinardii, and would introduce some different genes into my clones of this species. I bought three and they have all come up as F.amana. I have told the nursery concerned and they apologised and said they don't grow them but get them from a bloke in Holland! and the mix up must have been his. I will never do business with this company again, and will 'bad mouth' them in private , verbally , to anyone who is interested. There is another thread on this forum titled 'is business ripping us off' or something like that. The horticultural business is probably the worst of all >:( >:( >:(.
I have many F.graeca Fred, if you would like some bulbs later in the year please let me know.
p.s. - do you know which form of F.bucharica your is? Great photos.
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p.s. - do you know which form of F.bucharica your is?
I'm afraid not Ron, at the moment I'm just happy it is F bucharica
Great photos.
Thank you ;D
I noticed in a previous post of yours you mention the cost of a decent camera.
The one I use was less than £100 and I think the photos are definitely acceptable.
MrsG uses the expensive bridge camera ( £120 Olympus) ;D
I did a thread a while back http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7191.0
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Thanks Fred - it doesnt matter, it is a very nice F.bucharica ;D ;D
Interesting thread - thanks for pointing me in its direction. Obviously you know about these things. Some great photos on there. Very interesting. You certainly got the P.grandiflora colour pretty much nailed. ;D. I paid £70 for Noras Nikon. Maybe I'm not using it to its full capability. I'll have to have a play ::) ::) ::)
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...................Maybe I'm not using it to its full capability.
Euphenistic phrase for 'Haven't read the manuel? ;D
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;D ;D ;D
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Hi,
I have seen seed for fritillaria meleagris in the seed ex, described as twin flowered, much as it might be described as for the white variety.
I've a fritillaria meleagris which has had a single flower for many years, this year it has two.
So is the twin flowering just like in lilies where bigger bulbs tend to have more flowers, rather than some inherited trait.
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I am of that opinion David. It happens a lot in my Fritillaria, but doesn't necessarily mean the same will happen the following year.
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F. affinis tristulis
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All of these were grown ex. seed from Ron Ratko, and were received as F.lanceolata tristulis.
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Nice colour :P me want :D
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Another two from today ;D
1 Fritillaria minuta, not exactly the plant you'd expect from the name.
2 Fritillaria minuta, no the photo is the correct way 8)
3 Fritillaria armena MP.8146, hope to get more shots as it matures ( and it gets less windy)
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Interesting flower on F.minuta , Fred. Seven 'petals' and a four branched style. What are you feeding them?? ;D ;D
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Mice :P
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Getting a little confused with your Pings, Drosera and whatever else there I think ??? ??? ???
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Interesting flower on F.minuta , Fred. Seven 'petals' and a four branched style.
I checked the others in the pot and they're 6 petal tri-branched style as far as I can see.
One does have a twin flower head. ::)
A taller plant than I expected.
The other clone from a different supplier is looking a bit shorter.
The flower bud is held differently too.
Getting a little confused with your Pings, Drosera and whatever else there I think ??? ??? ???
Ooops, that would be the Sarracenia and Darlingtonia.
For Cephalotus I have to mince them. ;D
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For Cephalotus I have to mince them. ;D
Speaking of Cephalotus Krzysztof hasn't been heard from for ages. ::)
johnw
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For Cephalotus I have to mince them. ;D
Speaking of Cephalotus Krzysztof hasn't been heard from for ages. ::)
johnw
He's busy writing up notes... I heard from him the other day. :)
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Maggi, does the F. affinis tristulis that you have all around your garden ( an earlier Bulb Log ) spread by 'rice' only or by seed and 'rice'? I will be growing mine outside next year as trials have proved very successful.
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I think it is mostly by rice, Ron.... but the BD does scatter seed so that is a possibility, but it makes good rice which is easy to spread around.
Surely it is the most sinister looking flower with such black, reptilian looks? A wonderful thing!
Must add that there is probably more affinis around the garden than tristulis.
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Thanks Maggi.
As I've said before the American Frits are my favourites, and I believe the majority can be established in a garden setting here in the East of England. This is going to be the big year with hopefully hundreds starting off in the land. We'll see.
Glad you get seed also. I assume you have yours in beds, ( I am guessing ). I am trying scrubby grassland. Whats your prognosis?
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Scrubby grassland ? Hmmm... well, if it's thin scrubby and not thick scrubby...( I assume thin from the scrubby bit!) then I don't see why it shouldn't work. After all, they manage in such situations in the wild. Worth a try, for sure.... this could be the last word in smart meadow plantings! 8)
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Ron,
I love the F. affinis tristulis. Wonderful colour, and that ruffling at the end. Very, very nice.
Fred,
Send some of your plants here.... lots of mice around here in Aus at present after all the rains. ;D
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Fred,
Send some of your plants here.... lots of mice around here in Aus at present after all the rains. ;D
Better if you send me your rain Paul.
Such a pity that camels don't eat mice really :P
One new Fritillaria from me for today
Fritillaria hermonis amana
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Fred,
Yes, but if camels ate mice then what else would they eat?? :o :o I'm thinking that carnivorous camels would be pretty damn scary. :o :o
Our rain has been nice, after so many years of drought. So much flooding about the country at the moment though. That is the nature of Australia though.... droughts and flooding rains!
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A few updates ;D
1 & 2 Fritillaria bucharica this just gets better and better ;D
3.& 4 Fritillaria raddeana
5 Fritillaria michailovskyi
6 Fritillaria uva-vulpis, these were supplied as Fritillaria graeca :( ::) that is very annoying.
Fred,
Have you white raddeana or it is color mistake on picture (sorry, I'm rarely checking other pages than crocuses as it is not easy for me to type with right hand).
Janis
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Fred,
Have you white raddeana or it is color mistake on picture (sorry, I'm rarely checking other pages than crocuses as it is not easy for me to type with right hand).
Janis
Janis,
I don't have a white F. raddeana and there is no colour mistake on the picture.
If you see those flowers as white I suggest you adjust your monitor. 8)
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It is my laptop in Greece. So I suppose in home all will be OK.
Janis
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I hope so, they're definitely cream with green veins to me ;D
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Here Fritillaria stenanthera starts flowering
Roland
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Fred,
Have you white raddeana or it is color mistake on picture (sorry, I'm rarely checking other pages than crocuses as it is not easy for me to type with right hand).
Janis
Janis,
I don't have a white F. raddeana and there is no colour mistake on the picture.
If you see those flowers as white I suggest you adjust your monitor. 8)
Fred
The first two pictures appear white and the others yellow.
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Roland,
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
What a pot full. Not a species I've ever grown. So beautiful.
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I hope to have seeds Paul
first time it is flowering here
R
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So these are seed grown as well then? How long to flowering?
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five years
I got them from a friend
you can see all the different colours
if they where bulb grown
they would all have the same colour
R
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Roland,
I wasn't sure if it was just light differences or there really were differences in colour. Really excellent result. Well done.
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Fritillaria crassifolia from Hosap
Fritillaria obliqua from Pilous
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What superb F.stenanthera Roland. Congratulations on getting them to perform this well, :) :).
A lovely pair Tony, ;D. Something classy about the F.crassifolia in particular. ;D ;D It's amazing the differences in flowering times between the forms of this species. Five seperate months could see F.crassifolia flowering in the same collection!
Do you dry your F.obliqua through summer or keep on the moister side?
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Ron I keep the obliqua dry all summer. It is a bulb I got from Pilous in 1997
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The spring is getting into gear in Aberdeen, so frits in this week's Bulb Log
http://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/logdir/2012Mar211332339999BULB_LOG__1212.pdf
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Thanks for the info Tony. It obviously does the trick. :) :)
I think I've OD'ed on the latest Bulb Log. ;D ;D ;D I grow many of my Frits much better these days Ian because of you. I used to repot annually and try to give each bulb a lovely pot of its own. Now where stocks are built up they are squeezed in as many as possible ( in 1 litre pots ), and they do much better. Some have not been repotted for a few years now and they perform much more consistently. Outside in the open ground is the way forward for me too. Numerous trials have indicated a way forward, (for my area ) for many of the different requirements Frits have. Thanks again for keeping the Log going all these years, an invaluable reference resource it truly is, ( and fun to read too! ). 8) 8)
P.S. - I dont see why your F.rhodocanakis needs to be wrongly labelled or a hybrid ( although you know better than me ), as all yellow forms are recorded in all of these brown and yellow Frits including this one. Please dont ask me where Maggi, but I know they are. Perhaps someone might have a link, or paper reference.
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Fred,
Have you white raddeana or it is color mistake on picture (sorry, I'm rarely checking other pages than crocuses as it is not easy for me to type with right hand).
Janis
Janis,
I don't have a white F. raddeana and there is no colour mistake on the picture.
If you see those flowers as white I suggest you adjust your monitor. 8)
Fred
The first two pictures appear white and the others yellow.
Yes Arthur the first 2 are white and clearly labelled Fritillaria bucharica on the list I gave and on the pictures.
1 & 2 Fritillaria bucharica this just gets better and better
3.& 4 Fritillaria raddeana
5 Fritillaria michailovskyi
6 Fritillaria uva-vulpis, these were supplied as Fritillaria graeca that is very annoying.
Janis' question was on white Fritillaria raddeana which you confirm they are clearly not ;D
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I've been somewhat suprised by the response I've had to my postings of F.affinis tristulis, as it has been posted a number of times in the past years, and I know there is a clone available commercially. A number of people have asked if the flowers open any wider than previously shown. Heres some today.
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armena and minuta in the garden
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Very interesting John, thanks :) :).
You have VERY sandy soil? Does F.minuta flower each year?
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Very interesting John, thanks :) :).
You have VERY sandy soil? Does F.minuta flower each year?
Yes it does Ron. It is a very good doer for me.
Cheers,
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Question
How does one get Fritillaria persica to flower / repeat flower.
I acquired some 2 years ago, they came up blind, split into more and this year once more came up blind.
I bought some Fritillaria pallidiflora in the autumn and large Fritillaria persica corms/bulbs duly arrived.
I didn't bother too much as I suspected they wouldn't be F. pallidiflora, they were cheap, and I was hoping they were wrongly named Fritillaria persica "Ivory Bells".
These also came up blind ( darn it , thwarted again ::))
It would be good to get these to flower.
HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELP! ;)
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I was tryingto remember if we have ever had a Forrest Medal for Fritillaria tristulis and came up with these Bulb Log references.... stiill no wiser on the medal status, though!
http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/100403/log.html 47 pots to display
http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2004/050504/log.html showing how dark it can be
http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2005/200405/log.html
http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2006/310506/log.html
http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2008/230408/log.html
http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2008/140508/log.html - and yes, he knows it's not a cut worm grub.
...quite a few of the other frits being mentioned in the last few pages in these as well.
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Question
How does one get Fritillaria persica to flower
Keep bulbs in summer very hot and dry but not in sun. I'm keeping my stock in greenhouse in boxes covered by newspaper with empty box on top. Temperature there exceed +30 C.
Janis
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.....<snip>....You have VERY sandy soil?.....<snip>.....
I forgot to mention it. My oil is very sandy, but with a considerable amount of humus in it.
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Thanks for reminding us of the wealth of information on Frits in the Bulb Logs Maggi ;D. I've read each one a dozen times previously but they still stand up to a good re-read. Thanks again Ian.
Interestingly in one of these threads Ian mentions his F. persica in a pot did not repeat flower, but the one in the garden did. He muses as to why and ..... well check it out Frit fanciers. ;D ;D.
Is your Frit house still as strong as it was or have you moved into other areas?
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Thank you for that follow up John ;)
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But does he know its Noctua comes ? ;D ;D ;D
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But does he know its Noctua comes ? ;D ;D ;D
He does now!
[attach=1]
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That was just tooo quick :o :o :o. I surrender ;D ;D
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Frit. Stenanthera in Kansas, outside no protection or special treatment.
John B
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Very interesting John, thank you. Its looking great. :) Has it been there awhile? I ask because more and more people here are trying to get these outside, and I think your posting is very encouraging for us.
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Question
How does one get Fritillaria persica to flower / repeat flower.
I acquired some 2 years ago, they came up blind, split into more and this year once more came up blind.
I bought some Fritillaria pallidiflora in the autumn and large Fritillaria persica corms/bulbs duly arrived.
I didn't bother too much as I suspected they wouldn't be F. pallidiflora, they were cheap, and I was hoping they were wrongly named Fritillaria persica "Ivory Bells".
These also came up blind ( darn it , thwarted again ::))
It would be good to get these to flower.
HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELP! ;)
Ours is planted in the garden in a deep loamy soil with Hemerocallis growing over it when it goes down. It's flowered every year for the 3 years we have had and this year is sending up 2 noses.
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But does he know its Noctua comes ? ;D ;D ;D
He does now!
(Attachment Link)
Huh? ??? ???
Is there a pest coming of these critters?
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Very interesting John, thank you. Its looking great. :) Has it been there awhile? I ask because more and more people here are trying to get these outside, and I think your posting is very encouraging for us.
Ron, planted in 2010. Bloomed 2011 and now again. This winter not so bad, only a little
below 0 F but 2010/2011 down to -19 F.
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Thank you John. :).
Noticed this in one of the F.pudica pots today. This has happened without my moving a stone. I dont really repot my N.American Frits anymore, as getting them reestablished has never been easy for me. Eventually they creep up towards the surface. ::)
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Some frits in flower now.
Not my best photos as I am struggling with a new pair of glasses
Frit gibbosa - hope you can make out the different shades - apricot and pink - 4 flowers on one plant and 5 flowers on the other
Frit michailovskyi - from Augis bulbs - not really as orange in the flesh
Frit crassifolia - a selection
Unknown acquired as pinardii
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Arthur,
Great colour shades on the F. gibbosa. Quite different, aren't they?
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But does he know its Noctua comes ? ;D ;D ;D
He does now!
Huh? ??? ???
Is there a pest coming of these critters?
I hope not John : this was a jokey reference to the discussion about ID of these caterpillars and moths elsewhere in the forum.
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Love seeing your Frits Arthur, very very nice. 8) 8) 8) Especially your forms of F.crassifolia / michailovskyi. Such vibrant colours ;D
Could the unknown one be F. bithynica ? I'm sure there is a reason why not but just from this photo....?
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... or perhaps Fritillaria alfredae glaucoviridis?
It's certainly a beauty.
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Good call Ashley. Now rare in cultivation I believe. :(
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... or perhaps Fritillaria alfredae glaucoviridis?
It's certainly a beauty.
I think you may be right Ashley. Compare it with this:
http://www.fritillaria.org.uk/Image%20Pages/fritillaria_alfredae_glaucoviridis.htm
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Good call Ashley. Now rare in cultivation I believe. :(
Oh really? I have quite a good patch of it in the garden, but difficult to do much with as Sorbus reducta is moving through it at a rate of knots. The frit seems OK with that though.
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I'd be very hesitant to argue with Ian ( ;D) about the ID of a fritillaria and will only say that in my much more limited experience of F. rhodokanakis, the flowers invariably have a flaring shape, as the two below, 2 seedlings from the same batch, originally, as I remember, from John Richards' seed. The shape is similar whatever amount of reddish or brownish colouring the forms have - that I have grown anyway.
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F. camschatcensis
This species also seems to prefer to be almost on the surface. All my plants are like this now, not having being potted on for years. This one we can see has had the top of last years bulb scorched somewhat in the sun. Along with the old flower stalks ( still very firmly attached ) are more flowering size plants. They gradually move about the large pots in this way.
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Oh really? I have quite a good patch of it in the garden, but difficult to do much with as Sorbus reducta is moving through it at a rate of knots. The frit seems OK with that though.
They must look very good as a group Lesley? How old are they?
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I'd be very hesitant to argue with Ian ( ;D) about the ID of a fritillaria and will only say that in my much more limited experience of F. rhodokanakis, the flowers invariably have a flaring shape, as the two below, 2 seedlings from the same batch, originally, as I remember, from John Richards' seed. The shape is similar whatever amount of reddish or brownish colouring the forms have - that I have grown anyway.
There is nothing to argue about, Lesley. :D
In this Bulb Log http://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/logdir/2012Mar211332339999BULB_LOG__1212.pdf
Ian writes :
"I have this little one labelled as Fritillaria rhodocanakis but suspect that either I have mixed the labels up or hybridisation has again occurred in our frit house. Not at all surprising when we grow so many in such a small space that compatible species will hybridise."
To elaborate... the little frit is from seed from rhodocanakis, but he thinks it is a hybrid. It is not typical of our straight rhodocanakis.
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Fritillaria kotschyana in the garden...
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Very nice Don. :) :) It seems to like your conditions in, is it Iowa?
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F. affinis affinis
Flowering now in the Frit house, but at least two weeks away from flowering in the garden.
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Ron, my patch of alfredae glaucoviridis is perhaps 10 or 11 years old. There are generally about a dozen flowers. All from an original single bulb thougth and I have never had seed on it. The sorbus, planted at the same time and at least a metre away, covers more than 2 sq metres now.
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Yes Maggi, and thanks. I was tending to think Ian's own suggestion that he may have mixed the labels may be the correct one, but as I said, or rather didn't say, would happily accept Ian's diagnosis any old time. :D
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Thanks Lesley. You really have the right touch for the Frits. :)
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Ron, yes we're in Iowa... corn and fritillaries.
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Fritillaria whittallii
From Frit Group seed [received as F. graeca].
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Gerry
What have you used as a background?
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Gerry
What have you used as a background?
Arthur - it's a piece of hardboard painted with mid-grey emulsion (black on the reverse). The colour in photos depends a good deal on light levels.
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some Fritillaria in flower today,
F.aurea
karelinii
stenanthera with paler and darker flowers
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Udo, have you Fitillarias the beautiful outdoors or in a box?
kind regards, Wolfgang
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A few today - recurva just starting, and a mystery Frit. which came as F. liliacea but clearly isn't (in pure form, anyway) - it's very large and smells like an aroid, so I'm wondering whether it's maybe a liliacea X agrestis hybrid - any views?
Cheers,
Alex
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That is a beautiful form of whitallii Gerry with such clean and attractive chequering. Well worth the posed portrait. :D
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I very much agree Lesley. A very fine form and the picture is almost like a piece of artwork. Lovely
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These Fritillaria yuminensis from fellow forumnist yijiawang are looking very promising! They've been up since Christmas, and I'm amazed by how much abuse from the weather gods they've been able to withstand.
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Here it is flowering :D Growing in a polystyrene box kept inside until Feb
Susan
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A few more photos inside the flower of my mystery Frit. above, as well as a 'proper' in my view liliacea (ex Archibald seed) for comparison.
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Udo, have you Fitillarias the beautiful outdoors or in a box?
kind regards, Wolfgang
Wolfgang, all pots stand outside, only under a window.
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Alex,
It's lovely, although my first thought on seeing it was of an Allium. ::)
Susan,
That yuminensis is delightful. Reminds me of a white veticillata in some ways. Very nice!
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Some frits in Kansas
Fritillaria michailovskyi
Fritillaria michailovskyi multiflora
Fritillaria bucharica Nurek Giant
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Very nice John. :) They do look so much better growing outside. 8)
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Fritillaria tubiformis
From JJA seed (503.800), France, Hautes-Alpes, Pic de Gleize NNW of Gap, 1800m.
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Gerry,
Is that one pink or brown?
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Beautiful Gerry, :) :)
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Gerry,
Is that one pink or brown?
The colour of the flower in the photo is fairly accurate (the leaves are more glaucous - very grey in fact). I would call the flower colour 'puce' - a pinkish- purplish-brownish colour.
Beautiful Gerry, :) :)
Thank you Ron.
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Lovely, Gerry. I love how large the flower is proportionally. Great colour too.
Thanks for the extra info. 8)
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I bought these Fritillaria bucharica ‘Giant’ as dormant bulbs last Spring and they grew well.
However, only one surfaced this year and as you can see from the photos it is looking decidedly sick.
I thought I had better investigate and the results are what you see in the other photos. No growth on the remaining bulbs and possibly rot at the root bases. The growing one had a root system that looked healthy but there weren’t many roots. No root eating pests were found in the compost.
They were kept frost free in the winter and I followed Ian Y’s watering regime.
Any thoughts??
Probably my fault I expect.
What do I do now?
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What mix of compost did you use Graham?
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Hi Ron,
It is a JI No2 with added leaf mould and sharp sand. Moisture retentive but well drained.
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You watered when exactly Graham?
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Graham - may I suggest you improve the drainage? I use a mix of 2JI:1 grit (6mm):1 perlite in terracotta pots. They are kept in an open sand plunge, so get whatever the heavens deliver.
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Dont you think though Gerry, that getting the roots going in Autumn / Early winter may be the issue here? As well as drainage?
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I don't know Ron. I rely on rain to do the job.
Edit: A further thought Graham: I wonder if the bulbs were damaged by winter cold? Were the pots plunged?
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I watered them at the begining of October and kept them moist from there on as I did with all my others. No problems with the others - which are nothing difficult.
Whatever I do it will have to be simple - no plunge beds etc. They are in a terracotta pot.
Are they dead?
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no there's hope!
will get Ian to put in his three ha'porth ;)later....
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Graham
plant the bulbs back into just moist compost and with a bit of luck they will still survive and have enough resources to make new all be it smaller bulbs for next year.
The danger will be from wet rot attacking the bulbs treat them with some sulphur and scarape away any areas infected by wet rot until you find healthy bulb.
Why this happened is not so easy to work out but obviously something prevented the roots from forming. I have Frit bucharica in flower just now and it has never been damaged by the cold and we are not frost free. I wonder if being frost free could have made things worse and caused rot root.
There are obvious signs of fungal attack on the leaf growth you show but that is more likely to be secondary and cause by the plant suffering from lack of roots.
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Thank you to all of you for your imput. I think the general consensus is that I may have had them too wet so will add more grit to my compost and take more care with my watering regime next winter.
Thanks again.
Graham
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Graham,
Why frost free? I grow bucharica here (a single bulb, never multiplied in the decade I've had it... unfortunately) outside and if definitely gets frost without a problem. Even if the bulbs to not survive intact, hopefully you would get the scaling effect and get some small bulbs form on the scales anyway. At least that way all would not be lost. Now if you can work out how to get them to multiply naturally I would be very happy. I love this species, it flowers every year for me, but I've only ever seen it the once and still only have the one. I've never asked Marcus in Tasmania about it though, so perhaps I need to find a second clone and hopefully get seed from it. ::)
Good luck with sorting yours out. You certainly shouldn't lose them all by the look of it, at the very least bulblets should form off the scales.
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minuta in the garden
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A couple more Fritillaria bursting forth.
1 & 2 Fritillaria meleagris. I particularly like the markings on this clone, come to think of it it's difficult to think of a F. meleagris I don't like. I suppose it's not enthused over as much as it should be because it isn't a rarity. 8)
3 & 4 Fritillaria davisii. My first flowering of this little fellow, I'm sure there will be more winging their way to me this autumn. I like ;D
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Fritillaria whittallii
Received as F. gussichiae from a well known UK supplier of wrongly named bulbs.
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Fritillaria whittallii
Received as F. gussichiae from a well known UK supplier of wrongly named bulbs.
.... but beautifully photographed, Gerry. ;)
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Yes, beautiful plant, beautifully grown, and beautifully pictured. Thank you Gerry.
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Maggi & Ron - many thanks.
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This is one of the Fritillaria aurea sent as Fritillaria pudica.
The flowers are a bit on the untidy side, not as photogenic as F. pudica.
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Dear me Fred, you really are not having any luck at all with your suppliers. :( :( :( :(
Still a nice plant though, :)
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I'd already listed that error Ron.
At least I'm getting an idea of the bulbs I'll be ordering for next year :o already
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Nice Frits from all,
here some flowers from this week,
Frit.michailowskyi, dwarf form
`` gibbosa, thanks Janis :)
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F.bithynica
8) 8)
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F.bithynica
Now that's subtle :P
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With me Fritillarias only started flowering. The first was F. alburyana, then followed assyriaca, serpenticola and earliest of stenantheras (got as stenanthera alba from Whim, but turned type form of not very good color).
One of earliest pinardii and one of Iranian crassifolia's are flowering, too. At present that is all. Coming are latifolia and other stenantheras.
Janis
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Janis really wonderful pictures,mine have nearly all finished flowering.
Fritillaria drenovskii from Greece not a terribly exciting flower
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Fritillaria drenovskii from Greece not a terribly exciting flower
I always liked F. drenovskii. Unfortunately, I lost my plants some years ago.
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Fritillaria drenovskii from Greece not a terribly exciting flower
I always liked F. drenovskii. Unfortunately, I lost my plants some years ago.
Me too. I was first given it many years ago by Harold Esslemont and so it had particular significance for me. That form had a little more definiton in its colour and slightly more flared ends to the flowers. Alas, the two cold winters of 2009-10 and 2010-11 saw its passing.
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Janis really wonderful pictures,mine have nearly all finished flowering.
All my bulbs blooms much later than with you. Sometimes I even don't know - is it worth to put some on forum? - are someone still interested in those? I noted that by crocus entries - as later flowers come here as less forumists are watching them on my entries and no comments come to my questions.
Janis
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Fritillaria drenovskii from Greece not a terribly exciting flower
I always liked F. drenovskii. Unfortunately, I lost my plants some years ago.
Me too. I was first given it many years ago by Harold Esslemont and so it had particular significance for me. That form had a little more definiton in its colour and slightly more flared ends to the flowers. Alas, the two cold winters of 2009-10 and 2010-11 saw its passing.
Yes - my plants (from Norman Stevens) were quite a strong yellow at the tepal tips - a nice contrast - & the flowers were flared at the mouth.
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All my bulbs blooms much later than with you. Sometimes I even don't know - is it worth to put some on forum? - are someone still interested in those? I noted that by crocus entries - as later flowers come here as less forumists are watching them on my entries and no comments come to my questions.
Janis
Keep posting Janis, I may not be able to answer your questions but I always look :D
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Janis I do not always expect comments when I post and do not often make them when looking at others postings but I am sure most people enjoy the variety of plants they get to see and I would ask that you continue to show as many as possible.
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I appreciate your pictures, keep them coming.
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Janis, How could you NOT show those gorgeous frits? A superb group of F. alburyana, and of F sepenticola which I didn't realize had multi-flowered stems like yours. Is this the usual for established plants? I so far have had only single flowers per stem.
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This of F. alburyana is for ronm, re a PM between us.
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Janis, How could you NOT show those gorgeous frits? A superb group of F. alburyana, and of F sepenticola which I didn't realize had multi-flowered stems like yours. Is this the usual for established plants? I so far have had only single flowers per stem.
It is the first time with me, too but all stock is such. Other stocks has only one flower on stem.
Janis
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Thank you Lesley. It is indeed a most beautiful form.
Please keep the postings coming Janis. Inspirational :)
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Fritillaria thessala
Received as F. gussichiae from a well known UK supplier of wrongly named bulbs.
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That is a beautiful thing Gerry. :o
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F.glauca
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A couple of pots of F. liliacea today.
Alex
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Lovely group Alex, 8) 8)
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Fritillaria thessala
Received as F. gussichiae from a well known UK supplier of wrongly named bulbs.
From PC?
Janis
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Fritillaria thessala
Received as F. gussichiae from a well known UK supplier of wrongly named bulbs.
From PC?
Janis
Who else?
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A couple of Fritillaria eduardii growing very well
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Hello, A friend of mine who showed these 2 pictures to me today, if anyone could help me to identify it? From S.China, thank you in advanced.
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Fritillaria meleagris
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Hello, A friend of mine who showed these 2 pictures to me today, if anyone could help me to identify it? From S.China, thank you in advanced.
It seems we are all having a tough time putting a name to that Fritillaria :-\
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Fritillaria bucharica flowering now- it's been through 2 snowstorms since it started flowering a few weeks ago.
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Its looking very well in spite of the weather Simon.
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Hello, A friend of mine who showed these 2 pictures to me today, if anyone could help me to identify it? From S.China, thank you in advanced.
It seems we are all having a tough time putting a name to that Fritillaria :-\
Thank you for regarding, maybe I have gotten it's name, Fritillaria anhuiensis , hope correct.
http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=3&taxon_id=240001262
http://www.cvh.org.cn/lsid/detail.php?lsid=urn:lsid:cvh.org.cn:specimens:PE_00137943
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Yijia
it is a beautiful plant.
Edited out my comment in view of Rons comment below
Ron it might have spoken to you but not to me!!
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The one on Wiki is F.acmopetala. Double click on the photo and it tells us this itself!
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So it does!
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So it does!
Is a talking fritillaria a new genetic development, I could not get it to speak. maybe I need to upgrade from XP.
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Hello, A friend of mine who showed these 2 pictures to me today, if anyone could help me to identify it? From S.China, thank you in advanced.
It seems we are all having a tough time putting a name to that Fritillaria :-\
I don't know if the foliage shown is from the frit or what its foliage should be like anyway but I wondered about F. walujewii? Well yes, obviously the foliage belongs to the frit but perhaps there's somethings else growing at the base? No probably not.
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A green form of Fritillaria latifolia collected in the Caucusus
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Very very nice Tony. Collected as seed? If so how old please? Is this picture recent? Are most of your other Frits 'going over' now? I ask because I am trying to compile a database regarding these type of Frits.
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Ron
given to me as a gift on a visit to east Germany many years ago. Collected I think as a bulb probably 30+ years ago.
The picture was taken this afternoon. If you look at the picture details on my postings you will see I always include the date in its name.This is when I took the picture (unless you know this it is not obvious).It is helpful when comparing flowering times year on year and also helps that the names on the pictures do not clash in my folders. I have done this since getting a digital camera.
All my frits have now finished except this one and F. liliacea which is just flowering.
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Thank you Tony. Great information :). I really should have looked at the picture details :-[ :-[. Thanks for pointing this out, I am trying to be disciplined enough to always do the same with mine. I asked about your other Frits because I find the actual flowering time less useful than the comparative flowering time ( with other Frits in the same collection). Obviously this is still not definitive. I hope to be able to collect enough data to one day propose some ideas one the relationships here. Thanks again Tony ;D ;)
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A green form of Fritillaria latifolia collected in the Caucusus
It is Fritillaria collina.
Janis
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Hello, A friend of mine who showed these 2 pictures to me today, if anyone could help me to identify it? From S.China, thank you in advanced.
May be it really is F. anhuiensis (I never had it). My first opinion was that it looks very similar to the China frit which I named as "close to F. monanthos" - but mine has much narrower leaves. Such were grown as sp. in Gothenburg BG, too (on 2nd picture).
Janis
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A green form of Fritillaria latifolia collected in the Caucusus
It is Fritillaria collina.
Janis
A little more effort and I have found I received it as F. latifolia 'Elbrus Gelb'.
I see that Oron found a green form of F. latifolia on his trip to Georgia last year. The Eastern Block gave a new species name to every variation of a plant they found and so I ask are there any significant differences between F. latifolia and F. collina other than the colour
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A green form of Fritillaria latifolia collected in the Caucusus
It is Fritillaria collina.
Janis
Insofar as one can tell from a photo the description (by Rix) in European Garden Flora suggests to me that this is F. latifolia - obtuse or rounded & incurved perianth segments; those of F. collina are said to be acute.
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A green form of Fritillaria latifolia collected in the Caucusus
It is Fritillaria collina.
Janis
A little more effort and I have found I received it as F. latifolia 'Elbrus Gelb'.
I see that Oron found a green form of F. latifolia on his trip to Georgia last year. The Eastern Block gave a new species name to every variation of a plant they found and so I ask are there any significant differences between F. latifolia and F. collina other than the colour
Tony - a further characteristic of F. collina is that the inner perianth segments are fringed on the margin. As I remember from when I had the plant, this is clearly visible in the flesh though maybe not so clear on photos.
Edit: Also, from Flora of the USSR vol IV, F. collina has a "tuft of short white hairs" at the apex of the segments.
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F.meleagris
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F.latifolia, F.collina. :-\ :-\
A few points from history.
F.latifolia was published in 1799, F.collina in 1805.
It would seem the debate as to the status of F.collina was flourishing in 1813 ! In V 37-38 of Curtis's Botanical magazine of that year F.collina ( as well as F.lutea, F.lutea punctata, F.flore luteo and F. flore flavo) was considered a synonym of F.latifolia v. lutea. The following was written about F.latifolia v. lutea ( I have changed the f's for s's );
" The present variety has been considered by Mr. MARSCHAL and some others , as a distinct species from latifolia; but as no characters, beyond those of size and colour, have been adduced to seperate the species, we being unable to detect any others, have continued them as varieties. All are found on Caucasus; the yellow in particular near Kasbek. The capsule is obtuse-angular. Mr.MARSCHAL observes, that in garden specimens, the leaves are more conspicuously alternate, or placed at wider distances from each other than in spontaneous ones. For further account of the species, see No.1207. Our drawing ( which I doubt I can reproduce here - RON ) was made from a plant in Mr. WILLIAMS's Nursery, at Turnham-Green. All are perfectly hardy. G."
F.collina is recognised on the Kew list by virtue of being accepted by Phillips and Rix (1989), and Takhtajan (2006). It is not accepted by Govaerts (2001)( but as F.latifolia ).
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Interesting there is a continuous spectrum between pure white F. Meleagris and pure dark (Fritillaria meleagris ssp. burnatii). I have one this year that is half white, but it's not as pretty as the one just posted by Ron. Question are any of them spotless, the spots are white, so it might be the pure dark ones that have no spots, at any rate a spotless one would be pure white or pure dark.
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F.meleagris
I guess this is the closest I get at the moment David.
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I see that Oron found a green form of F. latifolia on his trip to Georgia last year. The Eastern Block gave a new species name to every variation of a plant they found and so I ask are there any significant differences between F. latifolia and F. collina other than the colour
http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7321.msg202627#msg202627 (http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7321.msg202627#msg202627)
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Does it ever set seed Tony?
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A couple of lovely Frits there Janis. 8) 8)
The Fritillaria sp. Xingjanng Tianschan Heavenly lake Got-2 is the one that has been doing the rounds as F.walujewii isn't it? I hear that it is not now considered to be F.walujewii, but don't know why? Can you help?
Very interesting how some of the 'Chinese Frits' superficially resemble the 'American Frits'. 8)
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A couple of lovely Frits there Janis. 8) 8)
The Fritillaria sp. Xingjanng Tianschan Heavenly lake Got-2 is the one that has been doing the rounds as F.walujewii isn't it? I hear that it is not now considered to be F.walujewii, but don't know why? Can you help?
Very interesting how some of the 'Chinese Frits' superficially resemble the 'American Frits'. 8)
I thought Fritillaria sp. Xingjanng Tianschan Heavenly lake Got-2 was a F. monantha?
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F.meleagris
Nice clone Ron ;D
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F.meleagris
I guess this is the closest I get at the moment David.
The pure white ones always look a bit spotty to me, but it is hard to pin down. Sort look from a distance see the spots, look closely and they go away.
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Thanks Fred, :).
Perhaps it is Maggi, ??? :-\.
How come there is a key for all the species mentioned ( http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=113029 (http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=113029) ) but as far as I am aware no corresponding pictures?
All I know is that almost certainly the one pictured second by Janis has been called F.walujewii many times in the past and now it isn't. I am not arguing that it should be, I dont know anything about these Chinese Frits, only trying to point out that some of us growing F.walujewii probably aren't. Am I making things worse ??? ::) ???
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Same here David, ;D ;D
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F.recurva
Before you all jump in I know its a weed, but a rather nice one, ;)
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I'd only jump in to say what a beauty it is Ron 8)
Striking and elegant. What more can we ask for?
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F.recurva
Before you all jump in I know its a weed, but a rather nice one, ;)
That's a weed? :o
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No weeds like that round here. ::)
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Tony - a further characteristic of F. collina is that the inner perianth segments are fringed on the margin. As I remember from when I had the plant, this is clearly visible in the flesh though maybe not so clear on photos.
The fringed margins of the perianth segments are clearly shown on this photo on the Frit Group website:
http://www.fritillaria.org.uk/Image%20Pages/fritillaria_collina.htm
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F.recurva
Before you all jump in I know its a weed, but a rather nice one, ;)
I'd be very pleased with weeds like that in my garden. I'd be collecting them and potting them up instead of composting them. ;D
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Tony - a further characteristic of F. collina is that the inner perianth segments are fringed on the margin. As I remember from when I had the plant, this is clearly visible in the flesh though maybe not so clear on photos.
The fringed margins of the perianth segments are clearly shown on this photo on the Frit Group website:
http://www.fritillaria.org.uk/Image%20Pages/fritillaria_collina.htm
Gerry they are fringed in the first picture but not in the second. Mine has not got fringed edges.
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Tony - a further characteristic of F. collina is that the inner perianth segments are fringed on the margin. As I remember from when I had the plant, this is clearly visible in the flesh though maybe not so clear on photos.
The fringed margins of the perianth segments are clearly shown on this photo on the Frit Group website:
http://www.fritillaria.org.uk/Image%20Pages/fritillaria_collina.htm
Gerry they are fringed in the first picture but not in the second. Mine has not got fringed edges.
Tony - I suspect the second may not be F. collina or the photo is not good enough. The fringed margin is referred to by both Rix & Flora of USSR & I saw it on my own plant (from Norman Stevens & long gone). On this basis, & the other features of the perianth segments I referred to above, I would be reasonably happy to conclude that your plant probably is F. latifolia. The other feature of F. collina mentioned by the Flora is the presence of a "beard" between the lobes of the 3-fid style; I guess you would need a lens to see if this was present.
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This picture of Fritillaria collina may help clear up the ID.
The fringe along the inner segments are clearly seen.
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Tony - a further characteristic of F. collina is that the inner perianth segments are fringed on the margin. As I remember from when I had the plant, this is clearly visible in the flesh though maybe not so clear on photos.
The fringed margins of the perianth segments are clearly shown on this photo on the Frit Group website:
http://www.fritillaria.org.uk/Image%20Pages/fritillaria_collina.htm
Gerry they are fringed in the first picture but not in the second. Mine has not got fringed edges.
Tony - I suspect the second may not be F. collina or the photo is not good enough. The fringed margin is referred to by both Rix & Flora of USSR & I saw it on my own plant (from Norman Stevens & long gone). On this basis, & the other features of the perianth segments I referred to above, I would be reasonably happy to conclude that your plant probably is F. latifolia. The other feature of F. collina mentioned by the Flora is the presence of a "beard" between the lobes of the 3-fid style; I guess you would need a lens to see if this was present.
Gerry the lens has been produced and I can confirm that the style on mine is 'as smooth as a baby's bum'
I really think that if species are going to be determined on the basis of a few hairs (I remember last year two lilies being differentiated by one having hairs on the stigma and one not) I shall just stick to growing them and enjoying them for what they are. I see these discussions on other forums such as for orchids and although interesting in the end they always run into the sand.
Ian lovely illustrative picture.
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Gerry the lens has been produced and I can confirm that the style on mine is 'as smooth as a baby's bum'
I really think that if species are going to be determined on the basis of a few hairs (I remember last year two lilies being differentiated by one having hairs on the stigma and one not) I shall just stick to growing them and enjoying them for what they are.............
"That's the way it crumbles, cookiewise" - in the immortal words of C.C. Baxter
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Tony - a further characteristic of F. collina is that the inner perianth segments are fringed on the margin. As I remember from when I had the plant, this is clearly visible in the flesh though maybe not so clear on photos.
The fringed margins of the perianth segments are clearly shown on this photo on the Frit Group website:
http://www.fritillaria.org.uk/Image%20Pages/fritillaria_collina.htm
Gerry they are fringed in the first picture but not in the second. Mine has not got fringed edges.
Looking at my records, I see that the first picture is by Henrik Zetterlund so presumably correctly identified.
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F. latifolia and collina has different ecology, too. F. latifolia is plant of open fields, but collina allways grow in some protection of shrubs or evben inside where I never saw any latifolia - nor in Georgia, nor in Turkey.
Janis
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Some pictures of Fritillaria collina. Vanadzor is in Armenia and on flower detail you can see edge of petals.
F. collina is known in two forms - typica from Georgia - much taller plant, sample from Krestovij pass
F. collina nobilis is from Turkey and small plant, in this aspect resembles F.. alburyana.
Janis
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http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7657.msg209671#msg209671 (http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7657.msg209671#msg209671)
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http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7657.msg209671#msg209671 (http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7657.msg209671#msg209671)
As Maynard Keynes is supposed to have said: "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do?..."
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I go with the facts too.
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Janis, nice flowers from F.collina,
here some Frits. in my garden:
F.grandiflora, Talish Range
latifolia, Ardahan, NE-Turkey
minima
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A few quick shots of Fritillaria from this week.
1 & 2 Fritillaria persica "Ivory Bells", Not my plant unfortunately. :( I took this when visiting DaveP.
A reminder what F.persica looks like if I ever get it to flower again. ::)
3, 4 & 5 Fritillaria pallidiflora, Well would you believe it, I finally got a correct F. pallidiflora supplied. I suppose it helps using different suppliers. :P Terrific plant this, more required for next year ;D
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Fritillaria from Shurab, supposed new - my own gathering and grown from Jilek seeds
Fritillaria stenanthera - real ALBA and good soft pink raised as "Multiflora" from Jilek seeds. Really not very special (I had plants with much more flowers), but colour is good.
Fritillaria strausii - from Gothenburg BG
Janis
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F.pyrenaica lutescens
Some lovely pictures of the paler Frits today. Thanks Dirk, Fred and Janis. Some really special ones there.
A rather more humble offering from me.
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I am trying not to covet but it's just not working :-[
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Help needed for this Frit. Grown from seed, no records kept by myself as usual. It stands 50cm tall and has bulbils.
Thanks
Susan
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Just a 15 minute walk ...........from were i live .Thousand and one ;) F meleagris
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Help needed for this Frit. Grown from seed, no records kept by myself as usual. It stands 50cm tall and has bulbils.
Thanks
Susan
Susan - it could be F. forbesii though it seems very tall for that sp. Have a look here:
http://www.fritillaria.org.uk/Image%20Pages/fritillaria_forbesii.htm
or here:
http://www.fritillariaicones.com/icones/icones_f.html
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Susan, what is the style like please?
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Susan - on second thoughts, given the height & presence of bulbils maybe F. frankiorum? See here:
http://www.fritillariaicones.com/icones/frankiorum.html
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Yes. I think that's an excellent call Gerry.
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Thanks for your help.
I am going to go with F frankiorum. I never knew about the Frit icon website, really good as it has pictures of the bulbs as well as flowers, more useful I think.
Thanks for your time as always the forum delivers again.
Susan
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Further to the discussion over Fritillaria latifolia I have never been been able to see a clear distinction between it and Fritillaria tubiformis, and its its sub species moggridgei.
Below are two pictures the first a yellow form of Fritillaria tubiformis and below sub species moggridgei.
Look at these and then look at F. latifolia could they be geographic variations of a single wide spread species?
My problem may be that I have raised them all from seed and these are from our own garden seed so they may cross once they are in cultivation - not the same as studying them in the wild.
One thing for sure is I love all of them.
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Further to the discussion over Fritillaria latifolia I have never been been able to see a clear distinction between it and Fritillaria tubiformis, and its its sub species moggridgei.
Below are two pictures the first a yellow form of Fritillaria tubiformis and below sub species moggridgei.
Look at these and then look at F. latifolia could they be geographic variations of a single wide spread species?
Not if:
a, you are a botanist who wants to write a book
b, sell bulbs and want as many species as possible
c, a nationalist who wants as many species as possible in their country
d, a collector who want every one in their collection
then there are the lumpers!
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then there are the lumpers!
You can get ointment for those you know 8)
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Further to the discussion over Fritillaria latifolia I have never been been able to see a clear distinction between it and Fritillaria tubiformis, and its its sub species moggridgei.
Below are two pictures the first a yellow form of Fritillaria tubiformis and below sub species moggridgei.
Look at these and then look at F. latifolia could they be geographic variations of a single wide spread species?
Not if:
a, you are a botanist who wants to write a book
b, sell bulbs and want as many species as possible
c, a nationalist who wants as many species as possible in their country
d, a collector who want every one in their collection
then there are the lumpers!
Dear me, such cynicism!
a. the UK botanist who really knows about frits has yet to produce a book.
b. possible; some sellers offer the same plant under different names.
c. I would guess that nationalists have very little interest in plants.
d. more than likely.
Lumpers? I suppose we could call them all 'Lilies' & have done with it. Or maybe just 'Plants'?
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Further to the discussion over Fritillaria latifolia I have never been been able to see a clear distinction between it and Fritillaria tubiformis, and its its sub species moggridgei.......Look at these and then look at F. latifolia could they be geographic variations of a single wide spread species?
In European Garden Flora Rix approaches this position. But he is merely a professional botanist - a disappearing breed, along with undergraduate degree courses in botany.
Edit: I suppose the situation might be clarified when (or if) there is a phylogenetic study.
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Gerry
I just thought it was going along too smoothly!
I was not only thinking of frits but crocus ,muscari,orchids,lilies,narcissus........
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It really is a very difficult call isn't it? Paul Cumbleton has summed it up very nicely for me on the Pleione thread today. Without extensive field studies or huge horticultural experiments it really does mean that all of us ( amateur and professional ) are looking at a snapshot of genetic manifestation and evolution.
What irks me somewhat is that access ( even in this age of technology! )to the 'facts' is nigh on impossible unless you are working for an institution, or have £ thousands disposable annually. Even then the opportunity to question the assumptions upon which these descriptions are based is non existant, even though the professionals are paid by taxes or donations. Some are willing to come on forums such as these, massive respect to them. Others prefer to pronounce to the masses, I personally find this suspicious. The rest of us (nursery people, amateur botanists, hobby growers and students of the written botanical word, et al. ) simply follow whichever path we feel most comfortable with. Nothing wrong with that.
I am however becoming more and more uncomfortable with pronouncements made on this forum without any form of factual, technical or even historical support. Some forumnists are very helpful, posting a link / lead / documented support for their suggestions. For me this is excellent and surely nobody can criticise this approach. It gives us all a chance to learn from the person who has posted. Others however simply see a picture from a fellow member and pronounce 'such and such'. No explanation as to why they feel this to be the case. So nobody really learns anything!. Many members who don't want to feel they are 'upsetting the apple cart' will just let it go and not ask " why is your x different to your y? They look the same to me". These are the very people who deserve to have the why? explained.
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http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7657.msg209671#msg209671 (http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7657.msg209671#msg209671)
As Maynard Keynes is supposed to have said: "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do?..."
But surely facts don't change. Just more information becomes available so what was THOUGHT to be a fact, is found not to be. I hope my mind is sufficiently open to accept new information - or others' suggestions, as options - but I shan't go there. :-X
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I suppose, at the end of the day, perception is everything Lesley.
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True Ron.
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Maybe this will help us make our own minds up on the Turkish Frits, ( or not ???).
http://journals.tubitak.gov.tr/botany/issues/bot-11-35-5/bot-35-5-1-0812-9.pdf (http://journals.tubitak.gov.tr/botany/issues/bot-11-35-5/bot-35-5-1-0812-9.pdf)
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http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7657.msg209671#msg209671 (http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7657.msg209671#msg209671)
As Maynard Keynes is supposed to have said: "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do?..."
But surely facts don't change. Just more information becomes available so what was THOUGHT to be a fact, is found not to be. I hope my mind is sufficiently open to accept new information - or others' suggestions, as options - but I shan't go there. :-X
This could lead to a very long discussion so I'll restrict myself to a few remarks. The view that 'facts' are 'given' or just 'out there' is characteristic of a particular position in the philosophy of science - positivism. An alternative, & in my view superior, position is realism. Here 'facts' are conceived as theory dependent - the theory being either tacit or explicit. Hence, when the theory changes, the facts change. The history of syphilis provides a well documented example. I can provide references for anyone who wishes to explore further but I should point out that the relevant literature is quite technical.
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I don't think I'll enter that particular discussion Gerry, and as for syphilis, I don't feel the need to know much about it anyway - just been listening to a radio thing about Schubert - but perhaps I'm mixing, in my mind at least, "facts" with "truth." No doubt some could argue that truth is a subjective thing and so could change, according to perception. I incline to the "truth is truth, not matter how unpalatable or difficult to prove while a lie is still a lie no matter how many times it is repeated" school. Sorry, the quotation is not correct but you know what I mean.
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F. tubiformis moggridgei
To continue the ' paler version of'' nature of this thread at the moment.
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Further to the discussion over Fritillaria latifolia I have never been been able to see a clear distinction between it and Fritillaria tubiformis, and its its sub species moggridgei.
Below are two pictures the first a yellow form of Fritillaria tubiformis and below sub species moggridgei.
Look at these and then look at F. latifolia could they be geographic variations of a single wide spread species?
My problem may be that I have raised them all from seed and these are from our own garden seed so they may cross once they are in cultivation - not the same as studying them in the wild.
One thing for sure is I love all of them.
Ian, suppose that your plants most likely are hybrids. True tubiformis and var. moggridgei (tepala flava sparse rubro-brunneo tesallata) you can see on attached pictures. See Turrill & Sealy Hooker's Icones Plantarum. Studies in the Genus Fritillaria, 1980. Fritillaria latifolia there is regarded as separate species, but collina included under latifolia. Janis
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Thank you Janis for the pictures and the reference. Very informative.
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F. affinis
Of my pale forms of F. affinis, I like this one the best. It has a purity and a butteriness to the colour, whereas I think my others tend to greenish and sometimes look quite anaemic. I have selfed this for the last two years and have a very good amount of seedlings.
I haven't been able to establish the % occurrence of this pale flower in the wild ( can anyone point me in the right direction please? ). I have ordered some bulbs for later this year to supplement my own and am hoping to establish a good natural patch in some scrubby part of the garden. I'll be planting at around 10% pale form.
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I have found some work on the molecular phylogenetics of fritillaries. This study includes FF. tubiformis & aurea - which are surprisingly distant from each other - but not, unfortunately, FF. collina & latifolia.
(the PDF is too large to attach):
www.ninaronsted.dk/page1/files/page1_9.pdf
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Thank you Gerry.
Must have taken some time digging this out. Much appreciated. :)
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Interesting that they list F. maximowiczii in the Subgenus Liliorhiza. I hadn't picked that up before. 8)
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Here is a species from Pakistan,with certain resemblances to Fritillaria gibbosa, but I think it is other species. Any idea?
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I have no idea Rafa but it might be worthwhile looking at the online Flora of Pakistan:
http://www.tropicos.org/Project/Pakistan
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Some interesting Fritillarias blooming now
Fritillaria argolica
F-2 generation seedling from cross between F. aurea and F. fleischeriana. In F-2 each seedling was different, but this one I selected as best
Three different forms of Fritillaria crassifolia from Iran (WHIR) and Turkey,
Fritillaria poluninii from Iran
Fritillaria latifolia nobilis (Turkey)
Janis
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Loving your Frits Janis. 8) 8)
A number of us are wondering what differentiates F.latifolia from F.latifolia nobilis please? You have shown us both before but we don't know why they are different. Thanks. :) :)
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Loving your Frits Janis. 8) 8)
A number of us are wondering what differentiates F.latifolia from F.latifolia nobilis please? You have shown us both before but we don't know why they are different. Thanks. :) :)
F. latifolia nobilis has short stem and at start flower lies on soil. In F. latifolia latifolia flower opens at some height from soil - in nature at least 20-25 cm, but in cultivation stem at blooming can be shorter. I think that nobilis flowers are more shiny, type subsp. something dim. In nature no problems to separate.
Janis
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Thanks for the explanation Janis. :) And are they growing seperately in the wild?
Also I was wondering, on a different matter, if you think there are different environmental pressures on the yellow and purple forms of certain species? I note your observations that often the purple forms are in the open fields and the yellow plants ' hide ' under spiny shrubs or against walls. Could this be due to specific grazing pressure against the yellow ssp.? Is it a similar model to that which was classically seen in the Biston betularia moth of industrial England? Do the chemicals which support the purple colouration also support a 'bad ' taste?
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Apropos F. latifolia, Christabel Beck (Fritillaries, Faber & Faber, 1953) remarks that before World War 2 many named forms were advertised in bulb catalogues. I wonder if any of them survive?
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Janis
very nice frits and photographs of them.
Gerry
interesting comment re named forms. When I was looking at F. latifolia in the wild I saw dozens and no variation between them. I think like many other 'named forms' these variations must occur very infrequently.
I wonder what they looked like?
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Rhinopetalum stenantherum
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My Fritillaria ussuriensis , North Korea
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Rhinopetalum bucharicum of Northeast Afghanistan 4.200m.Flowers in our garden about a month later than the classical bucharicum of Usbekistan or Tadjikistan
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Hallo Jan and Janis, very nice frits
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Hallo Jan and Janis, very nice frits
Wolfgang, the color is beautiful, I envy ;D ;D ;D
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You all show such beautiful frits! Here only F meleagris are unscathed by the slugs.
However, one of the white ones has been strange in all years and now it is stranger than ever. The stem is 2 - 3 times as tall and thick as the ordinary ones and the flower has many more tepals than usuall. It is also two flowers to the stem.
It is a virus or a mutation? It has been different for several years and no other plant shows similar symptoms.
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Wonderful plants these ;D
1 & 2 Fritillaria biflora
3 Fritillaria acmopetala
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Fritillaria regelii, North Afganistan, plants height 30cm
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Loving your F.biflora Fred, 8) 8).
I'm hoping to post some pictures of F. involucrata growing in the garden later. Anyone who wants Frits growing amongst other plants in their garden could do a lot worse than planting this species. 8)
In the meantime for anyone who, like me, is a lover of this species, here's a nice page of it growing in the wild,
http://www.iris-bulbeuses.org/patrimoine/Fritillaria-involucrata.htm (http://www.iris-bulbeuses.org/patrimoine/Fritillaria-involucrata.htm)
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In the meantime for anyone who, like me, is a lover of this species, here's a nice page of it growing in the wild,
http://www.iris-bulbeuses.org/patrimoine/Fritillaria-involucrata.htm (http://www.iris-bulbeuses.org/patrimoine/Fritillaria-involucrata.htm)
It's interesting that F. involucrata on Montagne de la Sainte-Victoire is flowering with Narcissus assoanus. At least in the UK this narcissus needs a hard bake to make it flower.
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This lovely american Fritillaria recurva narrowly escaped being stood on by a deer in the garden. It was from Ron Ratko seed and has been growing outside in a gritty bed. This is the first year they have flowered. Some of the stems are different lengths, don't know if they will stay this way in future years or is they will standardize when they are fully grown.
Will have to post a picture later, Fred must be up early fixing
Susan
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A lot of my F.recurva are from the same source Susan. I find there is a great deal of variation in the height and that this tends to remain from year to year. I find this with all my seed grown Frits though, and perhaps we shouldn't expect anything else from what is after all genetically different material.
Its very encouraging for me that you are growing them outside in a gritty bed. I have enough flowering size bulbs this year to try the same, come planting time in October.
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Fritillaria pontica
(http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/5493/img0443rh.jpg)
(http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/8506/img0445xo.jpg)
(http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/5796/img0450p.jpg)
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Nice Frit. pontica, Peter
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Fritillaria meleagroides
From Frit Group seed. Derived from a collection made in Poltavs'ka oblast, Ukraine
This seems as easy to grow as F. meleagris, however it is not as attractive & is much less satisfactory as a garden plant. The very tall (50cm) & slender scape requires staking, otherwise it develops in a distorted fashion when there is even a moderate wind.
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A lovely plant Gerry. :) Do you think it would be good growing amongst tall grasses in a 'meadow' setting?
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F. involucrata
This one certainly does do well in a garden setting. I took these pictures a couple of days ago and since then we have had very strong wind gusts. They stand up to these very well. Excellent seed set every year and germinates very readily. As shown earlier a plant of exposed mountain sides, so expectedly tough.
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A lovely plant Gerry. :) Do you think it would be good growing amongst tall grasses in a 'meadow' setting?
It is said to be a meadow plant in the wild.
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Ah, It looks as if I can show off my Frit recurva now ;D
As I said perfectly happy outside, has a bulb like Frit affinis so should come easily from rice grains.
Susan
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Lovely Susan. 8)
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One on my absolute favourites, Susan... worth waiting for the photo.
I just think the form allied with that smashing colour makes it a real stunner.
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Yes, I am really pleased with it, didn't really expect such lovely foliage. Hope the deer doesn't decide to munch on it.
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I find the colour of the foliage and of the flower depends upon exposure to daylight ( the red develops more in the flower and the foliage with more intense daylight). I've moved plants around from year to year and the colour changes in both. There is also a good deal of variation between plants in regard of this.
Did you put this outside in the bed as a very young seedling, or mature bulb please Susan?
Congratulations its a beauty. 8)
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I've wondered if there are forms with that nice browny/red foliage and those with a more ordinary green or is f it is a reaction to weather/soil conditions. All still lovely to my eyes.
Maybe you need a few more "Heathers" to stand guard........ a whole pack of border terriers taking turns to patrol the field would keep the deer away as well as the rabbits! ;)
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Or that spray we were introduced to on another thread earlier, ... which stupidly I can't remember where it was, :-[
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Or that spray we were introduced to on another thread earlier, ... which stupidly I can't remember where it was, :-[
Ah yes, the mix of rotten eggs... or a proprietory powder....
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=8302.msg244650#msg244650 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=8302.msg244650#msg244650)
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Certainly plants of this species grown behind glass do not flower as red as those outside Maggi.
Up until now I haven't been brave enough to have them exposed outside all year round, even in a specially designed bed. Now i am going to try. Thanks Susan. :)
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Thats the one. Thanks Maggi. :)
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Hi Ron,
These have been outside since seedlings only about 1/2 are flowering so far , I have lost the label but I suppose they have been there for 3-4 years. I grow all my frits outside, purdyi is also doing well about the 3rd generation of my own seed now. The frit recurva bulb is about 6cm below ground but the purdyi bulb is quite deep about 10cm. It also grows in the field in loamy soil
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Susan, nice Fritillaria purdyi.
Here is a late flowering form Fritillaria bucharica from Wakham Valley in Tadschikistan.
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My Fritillaria meleagris alba flora plena got several flowers this spring. I got a bulb from a friend several years ago, he have found it a garden with an old farm.
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Kalle,
very special. 8) I've never seen before.
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I think this is F. viridea - it certainly is a US Frit, and was received as such - is anyone familiar enough with this plant to confirm or deny?
Ta,
Alex
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Looks about right,Alex.
See John Lonsdale's site for some photos...
http://www.edgewoodgardens.net/Plants_album/The%20Plants%20-%20%20Complete%20Collection/Liliaceae%20-%201/Fritillaria/F.%20viridea/index.html (http://www.edgewoodgardens.net/Plants_album/The%20Plants%20-%20%20Complete%20Collection/Liliaceae%20-%201/Fritillaria/F.%20viridea/index.html)
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Yes, I am really pleased with it, didn't really expect such lovely foliage. Hope the deer doesn't decide to munch on it.
According to David King (Bulbs of North America) it "grows among low shrub oaks or other leafy plants (often, poison oak) that protect it from the sun.....and from deer....... on its highest site it is out in the open."
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Thanks Maggi, I hadn't seen those - yes, it does look a pretty good match, which gives me rather more confidence in the name.
Alex
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I think the reddish colouring of foliage and stems on F. recurva is natural to it and not a result of weather conditions. All of my flowering plants and their rice grain babies have the redoverlaidwith grey colour and while we may have chilly days in early spring (first snow is falling today, late autumn) we certainly don't have anything to rival the climate in the north of the UK. The red colour of foliage and scarlet flowers make a lovely combo. Mine are from J and JA in the first place then latterly from Ron Ratko, all as seed of course. All have been outside in pots or ground since the end of their first year in seed pots.
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Loving your F.purdyi Susan, and your F.viridea Alex. 8) 8)
I find it amazing how you grow your F.purdyi Susan. It is considered a scree dweller and a 'snow melt' grower, along with F.glauca. I have a number from wild collected seed but haven't flowered them yet, despite being cosseted and treated like royalty! Perhaps thats why? ::) ;D. Another to try outside all year long. Thanks for showing Susan. :o
http://planethorticulture.blogspot.co.uk/2010/07/snow-melt-part-2-released-from.html (http://planethorticulture.blogspot.co.uk/2010/07/snow-melt-part-2-released-from.html)
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Ignorance is bliss Ron. Everything has to grow outside for me as the tunnels are kept for propagation. The only Frits that haven't done well outside are F. alburiana and the bucharica types, I have never grown them from seed though. Usually seed grown plants do better than those acquired as bulbs.
Susan
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Great growing Susan, 8), not ignorance I'm sure. :)
You've certainly made me have a rethink. ;D
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This has been out for a while, time I captured the image ;D
Fritillaria affinis
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Beautiful Fred. :) 8). A lovely patterned flower.
Unless its hidden somehow, this flower has no style. I find this happens a lot with F. affinis affinis. Its not permanent though and more than likely will have one next year, all things being equal. 8)
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Fritillaria meleagris Alba
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Lovely Wolfgang.
I've noticed that my small clump of F. meleagris is down to just two flowers this year. Maybe the lily beetles have had them. I'll find out when I dig them up, if it ever gets dry enough for me to get in the garden again!
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Despite my best efforts with a paint brush, this has to be the worst year for setting of the seed since I started. :(
Here are three that look to be developing well, but there aren't many more.
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That's a very interesting Frit in this weeks Bulb Log Ian, 'Craigton Cascade'. I see it has been around for a few years.
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=376.msg9671#msg9671 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=376.msg9671#msg9671)
What is its history please?
Edit - I see you explained some in a previous Bulb Log.
http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2008/160408/log.html (http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2008/160408/log.html)
Appeared earlier on the AGS website.
http://www.alpinegardensociety.net/shows/results/shows2006/shows/midland/images/Jim_McGregor/sizedDSCN1266.JPG.html (http://www.alpinegardensociety.net/shows/results/shows2006/shows/midland/images/Jim_McGregor/sizedDSCN1266.JPG.html)
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Fritillaria season has just started here but in a few days nearly all of them will be in bloom
1. Fritillaria euboica
2. Fritillaria raddeana
3,4 Fritillaria aff.chlorantha
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Loving your Frits Oleg. 8) 8)
Great to hear your season is just starting 8). Hope we can see all your Frits flowering as they mature. Thanks. :)
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Has anyone got any Frits still flowering or are they all finished for this year? ( Northern Hemisphere obviously ;)) ???
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A lot here,Ron.
1.2. Variations of Frotillaria crassifolia kurdica from the same sourse. A piece of luck
3. Fritillaria hermonis
4. Fritillaria wittalii
5. Fritillaria crassifolia crassifolia
6. Fritillaria rhodokanacis
Many more with the next post
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1. Fritillaria hermonis ammana
2,3. Two forms of fritillaria sewertzovii
4,5. Fritillaria elwesii and latakensis (find them difficult to distinguish)
6. Fritillaria bythinica
7. Fritillaria monanthos
8. Fritillaria grandiflora
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Has anyone got any Frits still flowering or are they all finished for this year? ( Northern Hemisphere obviously ;)) ???
Not too many around here, Ron, if the two entries received so far for the Frit. class at the Aberdeen show is anything to go by.... :'(
Oleg, your garden is blooming well now.... we have had very cold and bad weather recently... it is like winter again. :(
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Some more well nown frits: orientalis, ionica, 2 acmopetalas, pyrenaica, messanensis gracilis, pallidiflora.
It's awful to have vinter returned, Maggi. Here after winter we are having real sunner of 20-25C
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Fritillaria ussuriensis North KOrea
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Goodness Oleg, it's a great fritillaria time for you! So many and all looking healthy and at home in your garden instead of in pots.
Nothing in flower here but a few are coming through already, both alburyana and the tiny veined one beginning with "d" as well as some early pontica, affinis and recurva. Recent rain has brought on the latter. (The first two are always up in the autumn). Bitter cold rain and sleet today.
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Thanks, Lesley. Hope to enjoy the pics of your frits when we have dull autumn here.
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Wonderfully grown Fritillaria Oleg. A fantastic collection all looking so healthy and strong. 8) 8)
All gone here with the exception of masses of F.camshatcensis. I seem to remember seeing a 'burgundy' form years ago. I thought the picture was on this site but I can't find it so must be wrong. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? ??? ???
Thanks again Oleg, super pictures. Just goes to show that the most interesting plants are not always the rarest ones. These are perfect.
F.ussuriensis 'N. Korea', very interesting Jan. Striking :o. More than likely another very good candidate to grow in the garden. Grown by the thousand in China as its another of the 'medicinal' Frits. 8) 8)
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For those who do not consider fritillarias out of time at the end of May
1,2 Fritillaria pontica
3. Another colour pattern with Fritillaria acmopetala
4. Fritillaria thessala
5. Fritillaria kamtchatcensis
6. Fritillaria involucrata
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Oleg - a very nice collection. I have never seen F. thessala with that colour, do you know where it came from?
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Is there anyone who can tell me what kind of species which I have discovered grow between my Rhododendron. It is 40 cm. high.
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Its Fritillaria camschatcensis Karl.
http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl/record/kew-306541 (http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl/record/kew-306541)
http://www.fritillaria.org.uk/Image%20Pages/fritillaria_camschatcensis.htm (http://www.fritillaria.org.uk/Image%20Pages/fritillaria_camschatcensis.htm)
http://www.fritillariaicones.com/icones/icones_c.html (http://www.fritillariaicones.com/icones/icones_c.html)
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Gerry, I bought it from Norman stevens in 2004 so I found his catalogue of that yeaer. This is what he writes there: Greece 20 cm Pale green tesselated pale brown flowers.
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I grow Fritillaria camschatcensis but I dont think they look identical.
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Gerry, I bought it from Norman stevens in 2004 so I found his catalogue of that yeaer. This is what he writes there: Greece 20 cm Pale green tesselated pale brown flowers.
Oleg - Thanks. It looks purple in your photo which is why I asked!
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Regarding F.camschatcensis, I found this paper fascinating. 8)
http://eprints2008.lib.hokudai.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/2115/26240/1/3(5)_P219-232.pdf (http://eprints2008.lib.hokudai.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/2115/26240/1/3(5)_P219-232.pdf)
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F.biflora
Usually once my American Frits are potted they don't get disturbed again, other than for distribution or if the pot becomes too congested. However this year I had a pot full of F.biflora, three year old from seed. One of them ( out of about 50 in the pot) flowered this year. I have a number of pots of these and have never had one flower earlier than 5 years previously. So I decided to take it out of the pot and separate it from the others in case this was a feature of this plant, ( guess I'll know in 4 years time as no seed from it this year! :( ). Before I repotted it I took the picture below to show the thick contractile roots which aid this species to escape the high summer temperatures in its home on the open grassy slopes of the California hills. Normally these anchor the bulbs at around 20 cm in depth, but it is not necessary to achieve this in cultivation, ( and is probably not desirable, as this depth of compost in a pot may not dry satisfactorily for this species ).
I have removed the mass of 'regular' feeding roots for clarity of picture.
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Ron, it seems a wickedly ungrateful way to treat a frit which flowered for you at an earlier-than-usual time. First lifting it then removing many of its roots before repotting. I hope its natural vigour continues to support it and lets it flourish in the future. You must have a much more enquiring mind than I do, as I would probably just have been happy to have one flower at a young age, and thought no more about it.
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I don't think it felt a thing Lesley, it had snuggled down for the summer ;D
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I'm travelling through the Alaska panhandle on our boat.
The vegetation is incredibly lush, due of course to all the rain
and the long days. (I haven't seen a dark sky yet.)
Here are some Fritillaria camschatcensis growing on rocks
just above the high tide mark in Meyers Chuck. They varied
a bit in colour, some being unmarked and very dark, others
a bit greenish.
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My goodness, Diane, what exciting trips you do have! Super photos of a favourite Fritillaria .
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Thanks for posting these lovely pictures Diane 8). Must be a wonderful journey through some very interesting country.
I was only reading recently how in Washington State, F.camschatcensis is restricted to tidal marshes of Puget Sound and freshwater montane wetlands in the west slope of the Cascade Mountains. It seems this species is able to tolerate a wide range of environmental conditions and stresses ( including saline soils ), as long as water is readily available.
It is thought that F. camschatcensis was purposely cultivated and planted in coastal estuaries by native peoples. Research is ongoing into the plants requirements with a view to perhaps reintroducing it into original areas, because of its cultural significance.
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Diane - if you get hungry on your voyage you could always eat the F. camschatcensis. There is an interesting article on this & related matters by Ståhlberg & Svanberg here:
http://www.sgr.fi/susa/91/stahlbergsvanberg.pdf (http://www.sgr.fi/susa/91/stahlbergsvanberg.pdf)
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I showed a local man my photos of the Chocolate
Lilies and he didn't recognize them. Then I said
they were also called Rice Root because their bulbs
looked like a cluster of white rice. That triggered
his memory. He had eaten them sixty years ago and
would show me where they had been growing then. He
hoped he hadn't eaten them all.
He took me through the muddy woods, past grizzly bear
scat, to the other side of the island. There they
were - growing with Silverweed (Potentilla) on the
shore, and with Indian Paintbrush (Castilleja) along
a dike. I wondered what the dike maker had used, as
the frits growing on it were taller than any I have
seen - they came to the top of my legs. It might just
have been because the soil was so much deeper than the
rocky soil on the shore.
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What a wonderful sight. Thanks Diane. 8)
[attachimg=1]
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Your photos show a lovely variation in the markings, Diane. That last pic of the the Frits with the Castelleja is just gorgeous.
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Thanks for the lovely pics, Diane :)
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I visited Macedonia last June, where I photographed a fritllary that seemed to be identical to F. latifolia, a species that I have seen before in the Caucasus and NE Turkey. Can anyone tell me if F. latifolia is known to occur in the Balkan?
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Kees Jan - I suppose it might be F. macedonica. I had this many years ago but lost it before it flowered. I vaguely rememember that it was said to resemble F. latifolia with purple flowers.
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Thanks, although I'm not sure it is macedonica. I also first thought it was macedonica, but when I checked the description it did not seem to fit. Here is a picture, a rather nice plant. If it is not F. latifolia it is something quite similar.
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From the descriptions I have, the main differences between F. macedonica & F. latifolia is that the former has the upper leaves in a whorl of 3 & the latter does not. Furthermore, in the former the inner perianth segments are toothed on the margin. From your photo I cannot clearly make out the leaf arrangement.
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Here is a Chinese Frit which is flowering now. I have a group of these which flower at this time every year, after I have collected seed from all the others. I also noticed seed from these plants germinating now as well. It looks like a form of Frit taipiense. Apologies for the foliage, it got a bit close to the weed burner, a hazard of coming up when everything around it has died down.
Susan
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In the meantime I have found some pictures of F. macedonica that look very similar to what I photographed in Macedonia.
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Today I finished repotting of frits and started to replant larger stocks. The first to plant was Fritillaria olgae - very nice quite tall growing species from SW Uzbekistan. In nature it grows in very arid conditions. I collected 2 bulbs just at border with Turkmenistan, at Kugi Tang where it grew on rock terrace, in quite shallow soil. It gave good seed crop and on picture are seedlings from those plants. It is very tricky for growing as here it starts forming of new roots when it is still green - soon after ending of blooming. Those bulbs were kept in bulb shed in dust-dry sand but regardless of very dry conditions formed very long roots. So I decided to picture those and to show you. Regardless of long roots, carefully planted it grew very well and blooms every year.
Similar habit has Fritillaria verticillata from SE Kazahstan. This spring when I was there F. verticillata was in full blooms - and bulbs had short new roots, too.
Janis
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;D ;D ;D Excellent demonstration Janis. 8)
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Checking on my pots of F.davidii today ( and with Janis' post fresh in my mind ) I was pleased to note a very healthy quantity of roots extending well out of the bottom of the pots. I grow them in 1 litre, deep 'Rose' pots, with the top of the bulbs about 2cm below the surface of the compost. The roots were out through all drainage holes and extended at least 10 cm further along the wet table top. The pots are in deep shade, open to the elements, but always kept moist / wet. The first very tiny leaf was peeping out above the compost, in one of the pots, also. This is six weeks earlier than last year. For me the leaves increase in size in succession. This is the sixth year of growing. So far no flowers.
I'm going to pot the 1 litre pots into 3 litre ones tomorrow so that the root system is back in touch with compost at its extremities. ;D
New season has started, ;D ;D
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Here's the first Frit of the season for me - F. persica - as a cutflower due to damage by marauding parrots [see "Moan, Moan, Moan" thread]
cheers
fermi
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Hi,
I have posted many pictures of fritillaria flowers from our southern season on the Flowers and Foliage Now thread but I'd like to throw this one into the ring here.
I have raised thousands of Fritillaria acmopetala but this is the darkest I have ever bred or seen before. Anyone else had a similar colour form of normally green and brown species?
Cheers, Marcus
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I never have Marcus. Was it the only one among many seed raised plants? Did all the others come 'true'? What does the inside of the flower look like?
Are your Frits open pollinated?
The joys of raising from seed, ;D
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I've had some good darks but not THAT dark. I've sown and raised seed of a couple and they tend darker than the norm when mature so if you do seed from this one..... maybe a dark strain?
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Hi Ron,
Below is a picture of the plant next to it and all the rest are the same. I cannot claim any credit it has just "popped up". I am glad it flowered because it would have been sold in the next catalogue!
It is dark olive green inside but almost uniformly purplish outside. Its a good find because its a bulbil producer and I don't have to worry about whether it breeds true or not. You are right about the wonderful world of raising seed.
Lesley, I have a lovely form from Bob and Rannweg Wallis that is labelled dark form but it really has a bicoloured flower with alternative petals in green and solid brown. If it sets seed I'll send you some.
Cheers, Marcus
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Sorry forgot to add the pic!
M
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Thank you Marcus. It is a nice looking thing, and as you say, you should have no trouble bulking it up.
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A page that I haven't seen before has appeared on the PBS site. It deals with the first stages of an experiment regarding seed germination. May develop to be interesting, ?
http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/FritillariaGermination (http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/FritillariaGermination)
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Hi again,
I have posted this picture of Fritillaria bithynica collected by the R&R Wallis, which has an unwinged seed capsule. I thought I'd put in here as well because this form has created some interest and deal of discussion. Davis doesn't cite it. Rix does. But now in a recent revison of Mediterranean fritillaria, 'The revision of the genus Fritillaria L. (Liliaceae) in the Mediterranean region (Turkey)' by Mehtap TEKŞEN and Zeki AYTAÇ, of 2011, it rates a footnote under the description of Fritillaria milasense.
Confused? I am :-\.
Cheers, Marcus
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I'm really hoping that this will be mentioned in one of the talks, at the Fritillaria Group meeting on this coming Sunday, ;D
If not I know at least one SRGC member who will be asking questions ;D ;D
( Such as....... "Can I have one please?" ;D ;D ;D )
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I grew thisFRit from seed labelled F. messanensis which it is not : could it be a hybrid with pyrenaica or more likely an atypical F. pyrenaica . Could someone more knowlegdable please confirm it please
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Hi Otto,
I can't see the rest of the plant but here are a few general diagnostic characteristics that you can apply.
While messanensis is polymorphic over its range it does have narrow, linear alternative glaucous-green leaves and broadly ovate egg-shaped nectaries. It is said in its classic form to have a terminal whorl of three leaves but I don't find that to be the general case. It also is characterised by a pinched-in waist to the flower and up-turned tips to the tepals and I find that as a general rule but flower shape can range from campanulate to straight sided.
Fritillaria pyrenaicea has broader, alternative leaves (maybe slightly grayer and maybe fewer) and in my experience has 1 or 2 bracts. The nectaries are lanceolate and the flower tepals not as upturned.
F. messanensis is closely related to F. montana and easily confused with it but the distinct difference is that the nectaries in F. montana are much more linear and not ovate, as in F. messanensis.
I hope that helps? Maybe Rafa or someone who has observed these plants first hand in the wild can add more.
I would look first at the shape of the leaves - this is the easiest difference to spot.
Cheers, Marcus
PS I found this is a good article for aiding ID in fritillaria http://www.fritillaria.org.uk/Articles/fritillaria_by_bob_and_ranveigh.htm (http://www.fritillaria.org.uk/Articles/fritillaria_by_bob_and_ranveigh.htm)
As is the Fritillaria Icones pages http://www.fritillariaicones.com/index.html (http://www.fritillariaicones.com/index.html)
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Hi Fritillaria Folk,
I have another knotty one here. Came to me from the Wallis' collection as Fritillaria aff. pontica. Did anyone else buy this plant from them? Does anyone know what it might be? I haven't a location nearby but will look it up when I have a moment.
Cheers, Marcus
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Thanks Marcus for the detailed information on my "mistery" frit and the links - but I'm still none the wiser.
just in from taking 3 photos in my garden ,sorry such bad qualitybut the forcast is for snow down to 400 meters ,which means here .
one pic of my straight F. pyrenaica and the other F.messanensis ssp. messanensis which came from you .Can you shed any more light on the mistery F. ?
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Hi Otto,
It looks like F. montana. Have a look at this link and compare http://www.treknature.com/gallery/photo205501.htm (http://www.treknature.com/gallery/photo205501.htm)
To be really sure upturn the flower and look at the base. If the nectary is more linear than oval or ovate then that will confirm it.
If it is ovate then it is more likely to be F. messanensis - this specie(s) has a wide range of colouration but shares a similar narrow leaf structure with F. montana.
I hope that helps?
I am experiencing the same weather pattern. Temperatures have plummetted and the rain is smashing through, the mountain has disappeared in a veil of snow squalls. bad its come right on que for the big game today!!
Cheers, Marcus
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BTW I will have this species listed in my up and coming seedlist :)
M
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Hi again,
I have posted this picture of Fritillaria bithynica collected by the R&R Wallis, which has an unwinged seed capsule. I thought I'd put in here as well because this form has created some interest and deal of discussion. Davis doesn't cite it. Rix does. But now in a recent revison of Mediterranean fritillaria, 'The revision of the genus Fritillaria L. (Liliaceae) in the Mediterranean region (Turkey)' by Mehtap TEKŞEN and Zeki AYTAÇ, of 2011, it rates a footnote under the description of Fritillaria milasense.
Confused? I am :-\.
Cheers, Marcus
At the Fritillaria Group meeting meeting yesterday Bob Wallis gave a short talk titled "New mysteries and New Discoveries". The aim was to update the group on plants that the Wallis' had observed / collected, that still had not had their species firmly pinned down. First to be addressed was the plant often shown and distributed by them as aff. bithynica. Bob showed this is the one with the differing bracts, the smooth seed capsule etc. Bob confirmed through a very detailed set of pictures and explanations that this plant is in fact F.milasense.
Mystery solved. ;D
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Hi Ron,
Looks like Lesley and I must change our labels. Mine are still flowering away happily here - blissfully unaware of their identity change ;D.
Cheers, Marcus
PS Have they published anything on this species?
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PS Have they published anything on this species?
It certainly came across as the first time that this news had been rolled out for public consumption. I'll ask, and if there is anything to tell, I'll post back here.
051012 - Just heard back that this ( the difference between F.bithynica and F.milasense ) will be written up and published shortly, by the Wallis'.
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I was asked a question recently about F. ojaiensis and its origins. I can't say much except that it came to me from the FGAGS, the donor listed as Jane McGary. I assume - perhaps wrongly that this IS F. ojaiensis? Somewhere I read that it was related to F. affinis and so close to it that it wasn't worth separating, or even growing. But I think it is delightlful.
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Lesley - David King (in Bulbs of North America) describes it as "outstanding" & states that, although once regarded as a variant of F. affinis, it is regarded as a distinct species in the Jepson Manual.
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Lesley, thanks very much for posting this picture. A beautiful thing. ;D
Reading genetic relationship reports ( such as those available on Fritillaria Icones ), shows F.ojaiensis to be more closely related to F.pinetorum, F. falcata, etc. Quite a stretch from F.affinis ( of either type!! ;D ). The physical appearance of your flowers are much closer to the former, and really bear very little relationship to the latter, ... dont you think?
I would say you have a rare and wonderful thing there. 8) 8)
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I had an email from Jane today and she confirms she did send seed to FGAGS at one stage. Also mentions the relationship with falcata and pinetorum. I feel priviliged to have this little gem.
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Does anyone know of any records for F. camschatcensis from the Aleutian Islands? As these could be said to 'link' Kamchatka in Russian Far East, and Alaska, it would be interesting to know if this species occurs on this island chain.
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Yes, Ron, I believe the frit is recorded from the Aleutians - see here for one example :
http://arctic.synergiesprairies.ca/arctic/index.php/arctic/article/download/2161/2138 (http://arctic.synergiesprairies.ca/arctic/index.php/arctic/article/download/2161/2138)
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Captain Cook recorded F. camschatcensis from the island of Unalaska - one of the Aleutians - in October 1778 on his third voyage. It was also noted by Captain Clerke & Lieutenant King in their own journals of the voyage (a plant "called by the Russians Saranne").
Sarana is celebrated by a couple of place names in the Aleutians: Sarana Island & Sarana Bay.
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Thank you Maggi and Gerry.
Each of these references, no matter how seemingly insignificant, help to build a picture. With such a distinctive sp. (?) its highly unlikely that there is any confusion.
If anyone else has knowledge of more references I would greatly appreciate these ( perhaps by PM to save thread space, :) ).
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I didn't know one of the Aleutian Islands was called Unalaska, so presumably that's where Romanzoffia unalaskensis comes from. I sometimes wondered why the "un" in front of alaskensis for this unassuming but charming little plant.
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At the Fritillaria Group meeting meeting yesterday Bob Wallis gave a short talk titled "New mysteries and New Discoveries". The aim was to update the group on plants that the Wallis' had observed / collected, that still had not had their species firmly pinned down. First to be addressed was the plant often shown and distributed by them as aff. bithynica. Bob showed this is the one with the differing bracts, the smooth seed capsule etc. Bob confirmed through a very detailed set of pictures and explanations that this plant is in fact F.milasense.
Mystery solved. ;D/]
Oh dear, our MAF will be upset or rather what used to be ERMA but is now EPA I think, as in Environmental protection Agency. We will have to persuade them that F. milasense is here and well established in NZ. ??? IN fact, I've had the apparently unwinged capsule form of bithynica for a number of years, never had one yet, with a winged capsule. Some have plain green flowers some with pink edges to petals, all delightful.
Sorry, can't separate the quote from the post.
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At the Fritillaria Group meeting meeting yesterday Bob Wallis gave a short talk titled "New mysteries and New Discoveries". The aim was to update the group on plants that the Wallis' had observed / collected, that still had not had their species firmly pinned down. First to be addressed was the plant often shown and distributed by them as aff. bithynica. Bob showed this is the one with the differing bracts, the smooth seed capsule etc. Bob confirmed through a very detailed set of pictures and explanations that this plant is in fact F.milasense.
Mystery solved. ;D/]
Oh dear, our MAF will be upset or rather what used to be ERMA but is now EPA I think, as in Environmental protection Agency. We will have to persuade them that F. milasense is here and well established in NZ. ??? IN fact, I've had the apparently unwinged capsule form of bithynica for a number of years, never had one yet, with a winged capsule. Some have plain green flowers some with pink edges to petals, all delightful.
Sorry, can't separate the quote from the post.
Lesley how does this work for you now,i was at the said Bobs talk(which was fantastic),will somebody have to apply for it to go on the permitted list again as a new sp or will it be excepted because its been in cultivation there for a while.I should think this was always going to be a headache with a genus that is still being understood with new data.
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I was asked a question recently about F. ojaiensis and its origins. I can't say much except that it came to me from the FGAGS, the donor listed as Jane McGary. I assume - perhaps wrongly that this IS F. ojaiensis? Somewhere I read that it was related to F. affinis and so close to it that it wasn't worth separating, or even growing. But I think it is delightlful.
Lesley
When in doubt turn to the Archibald archive.
Seedlist master list.
1.371.350 : FRITILLARIA OJAIENSIS Cal., Ventura Co., NNW of Ojai, Wheeler Springs. 553m.
J. Andrews coll. (Untried in cultivation before this coll. - growing on well with us now) Disjunct southern member of the F. affinis group with 50cm. stems of widely bell-shaped flowers in dull greenish yellow with sparse to profuse dark dots. The broad, diamond-shaped nectary is diagnostic.
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Thankyou David. That sounds good and definitive. I have a lot of Archibald catalogues here but there was a period of maybe 10 years when I literally didn't have a cent to spare so didn't get their lists and missed out on not only seeds but much information as well.
Davey, what we will have to do probably is site the Wallis material as a botanical reference for EPA and with that, the new name should be added to the Biosecurity Index. We may have to submit plants as well, depends who's doing the adding. Going by what Bob Wallis is about to publish, all the bithynica material I have, is, in fact, milasense.
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We can only say with any certainty that the plant shown by Marcus is ( according to the people who collected it ) F.milasense. This is because it came from the Wallis' as their aff. bithynica, from the named location etc. etc. So we have a provenance for Marcus' plant. Unless Lesleys plants came from exactly the same source they may not be related to this at all. Various forms of F.carica ( capsule not winged ) were doing the rounds and seedlists as F.bithynica for years, ( I grow a lot of them ). F.mughlae, forbesii, sibthorpiana, pinardii etc., are all very variable plants ( all capsule not winged ), seed being passed around, which may fit the bill.
I wouldn't be changing labels yet Lesley ( to F.milasense )unless your plants came from R&R. Your plants can't be F.bithynica though, as they have a capsule without wings.
Of coarse we could all wait for the Kew Monograph on Fritillaria to be published in 2014 ( start saving your pocket money ;D ), and then make up our own minds.
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Rix's monograph has been "eagerly anticipated" for more years than I care to remember.
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Davey, what we will have to do probably is site the Wallis material as a botanical reference for EPA and with that, the new name should be added to the Biosecurity Index.
Just take care in the meantime Lesley ;) ;D
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10840408 (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10840408)
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Thanks for that most interesting link Ashley. Graeme Platt and Jack Hobbs are two of the country's most respected plantsmen but nothing surprises me so far as the plant police are concerned.
I don't remember where I had my original F. bithynica, presumed for some years! :)). It could have been an imported bulb in 1993 or it could have been from seed but who knows from what source? I didn't belong to FGAGS then. I've never had bulbs or seed from the Wallis nursery but did, occasionally from the Archibalds so that's a possibility. I post some pictures below to show what I have and the variation among them. All these are seedlings from whatever original material I had. Carica flowers later for me (now, this year whereas the (not) bithynica finished nearly a month ago.
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I included the last, in a trough because it reminds me of the "cut-and-come-again" lettuces and some other vegetables. I don't know how it came to be in the trough - I didn't put it there! - and every year as it dies down I dig it and put it elsewhere, usually selling it in the finish, yet every following spring, there it is, a few more flowers in exactly the same place. It seems incredibly vigorous and persistent. I'll get it though when we move as I'll have to empty most troughs to move them.
From seed sown in summer, I find they flower in 2 and 3/4 years from seed. Most set some seed and I've never had a single winged capsule.
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Such beautifully grown Frits Lesley! When we see pictures of these plants growing in the wild they always seem so lush and healthy. Yours replicate this vision. So often these plants in cultivation look 'starved' of something, and seem somehow ( although they may get a 'First' ) lacking in life. Yours certainly don't. 8) 8)
They appear to be quite uniform in appearance, apart from your last picture and possible picture number 2? They don't look at all like the 'typical' ( whatever that means??) form of F.bithynica that is commonly grown here in UK.
I wonder what they might be?
One thing for sure, if they don't have a winged capsule, they aren't F.bithynica.
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Hi Lesley, pardon me for jumping in on this conversation but I just couldn't resist raising the issue of individual species assessment a matter that I (and hopefully Tim Orpin) will be raising with DAFF here in Australia.
Can’t the Fritillaria Group end this farce? Surely your Group can ask the EPA to provide credible evidence that meaningful biosecurity is being achieved through the process of ongoing individual species assessment for a genus that has a 100% low risk record (that’s a no risk record)?
On the available evidence i.e. observation of the behaviour of the genus within NZ and the rest of the world it is clear that the genus Fritillaria is a very low risk pathway for disease and presents no environmental threat. It is therefore meaningless to apply individual species assessments where a blanket approval of the genus would suffice.
This would enable the EPA to do away with unnecessary regulation which unfairly impedes importers, wastes valuable agency resources, and directs biosecurity effort away from areas of greater concern.
Why don’t you guys try this on? It would appear your biosecurity isn’t used to consultation and is more interested in gold-plating than balanced policy. Challenge them on the science. The standard level of confidence in the field of experiment and observation is 95% and your group can easily present evidence that supports a 100% level. It’s an open and shut case.
Cheers, Marcus
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Can’t the Fritillaria Group end this farce?
Cheers, Marcus
I think I agree with Marcus.
The concept of specification is subjective anyway. If taxonomists disagree as to the nomenclature of a particular taxon, where does that leave individual species assessment?
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David makes a good point.
This is from an email from Laurence Hil (I am sure he won't mind it being posted here),
"From my work on Japanese Fritillaria and others the idea of morphological species is starting to fall apart. Each population has the potential to be a separate biological species."
This creates all sorts of confusions and problems for importers, like Lesley and myself, who have to then go off and gather evidence, present a case, etc ...., while the agencies sit on their hands and do nothing.
The telling point to make here however is that some genera, Fritillaria included, have no or very little risk impact, i.e. no individual species within its ranks has presented a disease or environmental risk, therefore ongoing individual assessments are meaningless. On the other hand some genera, Allium for example, contain individual species that do pose an environmental risk (or in other genera a disease pathway risk) and therefore individual species assessments are warranted.
Cheers, Marcus
Cheers, Marcus
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Oh crumbs! You are right of course and we as a group should be doing something positive about it. In fact, that very aim was part of the original purpose of the Group. Part of one problem is that none of us with the exception of Prof. John Lovis, is a botanist/taxonomist and almost certainly we will be told we aren't qualified to make such claims/requests but I agree it should be tackled and I'll pass along your post in toto if I may and see what comes of it.
We may have moved even further from doing anything about it recently in that at the last AGM (we haven't had one this year so at best it's a biennial meeting) it was decided to change the name of the group to Small Bulb Group as most members felt they had all the frits they could easily get and many don't want to bother with seed.
The people most likely to take the issue up are the specialist Groups and would certainly be supported in this by me and perhaps a couple of others and hopefully we would be helped by Prof Lovis but he is 82 this year and I don't know the state of his health. So OK, I'll try and raise a fuss and hopefully we can get something done, though honestly, ERMA and now EPA have never listened to arguments from amateurs.
Logically the same argument could apply to many bulb genera; Crocus, Erythronium, Galanthus, Narcissus et al and at one time all Narcissus were permitted - until the taxonomists started changing names, splitting species and generally publishing many more names. Since then, it's back to square one and we have to prove that the split off bit is actually what we have been growing for years as - whatever.
Considering the ways biosecurity threats enter the country, seeds or small bulb imports are the least of the country's worries. Containers of machinery, fruit from a dozen different places, people returning with not perfectly cleaned footwear and many more ways are real threats, as recent diseases of kiwifruit vines have shown and pests to attack bees etc. There is also the occasional provable case of sabotage of our biosecurity and the amount of resource badly directed is huge. We are told that every item coming to the borders is checked but we know for sure that probably one in ten is a closer number.
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Hi,
You don't need to be a scientist. All you need is logic and the internet. Turn the tables - ask EPA to provide the evidence to justify ongoing individual species assessments where there appears from your literature survey of relevant material no evidence can be found.
Also I would start of slow - don't introduce other genera into the situation yet. Just use Fritillaria as a test case. That way you can do the searching, present the evidence, and if you win you can use this as precedence.
Cheers, Marcus
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BTW I am telling you all this because I telling myself the same thing ;D.
We are in the same boat over here and it will remain as is unless DAFF are challenged.
Cheers, Marcus
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PS Pardon my grammar - in a rush!
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.......This is from an email from Laurence Hil (I am sure he won't mind it being posted here),
"From my work on Japanese Fritillaria and others the idea of morphological species is starting to fall apart. Each population has the potential to be a separate biological species."........
For some people the concept of morphological species finally fell apart some 50 years ago. It was in trouble in 1859. The biological species concept has just as many problems, at least theoretically, but it might be useful to sow doubt & confusion in the minds of those agencies who control importation.
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Mmmm ... my first reaction ... is that where grappling with these organisations on the simple scientific of concept of a level of confidence will be a test, a fruitful discussion about the validity or otherwise of the theoretical construct of speciation will be a step way too far.
But in this particular context it might as you say sow the seeds of doubt.
One powerful argument which the NZ Fritillaria Group can mount is to point out that blanket assessments already have precedence within that country's biosecurity system. Currently assessments for the type species apply equally to the subspecies and varieties. This implies a certain acceptance of the idea of commensurate risk within closely related groups. Surely it can be argued that this principle can be extended to an entire genus where low risk is observed across its entirety??
Cheers, Marcus
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We may have moved even further from doing anything about it recently in that at the last AGM (we haven't had one this year so at best it's a biennial meeting) it was decided to change the name of the group to Small Bulb Group as most members felt they had all the frits they could easily get and many don't want to bother with seed.
I have to take issue with this, Lesley. The name was not changed to "Small Bulb Group", but was added to, to become, The New Zealand Fritillaria and Small Bulb Group". This was done to add to our seed list, as the donations of seed for Fritillarias alone were becoming scarce, and as most of the allowed Frits were well distributed amongst us. We had been asked if members could donate seed from other small bulbs. In deference to the NZ Trillium Group who have an excellent seed list we will accept all but trillium seed.
As far as taking on MAF to get a blanket acceptance of Fritillaria, none of us on the committee feel that we have the expertise, nor the time to do it. My personal view is that it is really up to nurserymen who would be the ones who have the knowledge and the financial backing needed.
As far as I am aware, Narcissus was accepted but that general acceptance has been rescinded. Looking at the ones allowed in by MAF there are a number available in the rest of the world, that are omitted from the list.
Off to mow a lawn while the sun shines.
Susan
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Part of one problem is that none of us with the exception of Prof. John Lovis, is a botanist/taxonomist and almost certainly we will be told we aren't qualified to make such claims/requests but I agree it should be tackled ....
Leave me out of this ! I do have half an Honours degree in Botany, but was a complete dunce, in spite of having the very dashing young Clive Stace as a tutor, but that's by-the-by. As for being one of the two most likely to take up this issue, don't know why you should think that. I'm in agreement with Susan, it's up to you guys. I don't have a nursery, so don't feel the need to take on a Government department to bring in a few more species. Can't we just enjoy the ones we've got?
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Hi Everyone,
I didn't mean to start a tiff between NZ members so I'll make these two points and shut up ;D.
The nursery trade isn't interested in fritillaria nor is it interested in the sorts of small bulbs most NZ forumists would be interested in (they will already have whats available in commerce). So it will eventually be up to interest groups to move the situation on to a more equitable and administratively efficient footing.
That will mean calling to account decisions made by the EPA. If interest groups don't put their hands up they will never be noticed or taken notice of. The simple question to ask is why does the EPA continue with individual species assessments for the genus Fritillaria when there appears from your literature survey of relevant material no evidence can be found to justify it? Here is a concrete question to ask: I have on my seed list Fritillaria pelinaea is it on the NZ list? If not, why not? Just ask them that.
I think the Narcissus situation is a good example of how much of a procedural stranglehold your quarantine authorities has on meritorious and substantive debate.
I hope one day someone takes up this matter.
Cheers, Marcus
Cheers
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My impression was that Lesley was suggesting that it was likely to be up to people in specialist groups to take up this sort of matter- which is probably very true. I do not think her words implies any pressure or such towards such leading members, per se, rather that they were the sort of "leading lights" who might be the type of people involved. Unfortunate that umbrage seems to be taken over such an innocent comment.
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Perhaps it's true to say that in any democracy organs of Government implement rules and procedures they are allowed to get away with regardless of their general suitability. Part of the fun of living in a democracy is having the ability to question the ongoing suitability of those rules and procedures and pointing out as forcibly as possible that all perceived wisdom does not lie within the body politic-far from it. A case in point, here in the UK, were recent Government proposals to dispose of the national forests to private owners. As a result of a national campaign first started by individuals who considered this not to be "perceived wisdom" the Government dumped the whole idea. An individual will never win (well, rarely) but a group of like minded with a strong rational and sense of purpose and justice and equality has every chance. If everyone sticks their heads under the table then they get the rules they deserve.
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If everyone sticks their heads under the table then they get the rules they deserve.
Yeah, perhaps if you behave yourself and keep your head stuck under the table, you won't get raided at dawn! ;D
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I don't think anybody here is talking about overthrowing governments ;D.
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The inaugural meeting of the Fritillaria Group took place 15 years ago today. About 50 members attended. The decision to form such a Group was made at a small meeting of enthusiasts held the previous Spring.
Some forumists will remember that the Group owes its existence to the vision & enterprise of the late Erna & Ronald Frank who, appropriately, are commemorated by Fritillaria frankiorum, discovered & named by Erna & Ronald’s old friends & travelling companions, Bob & Rannveig Wallis.
Mention should also be made of the contribution of Marion & Bob Charman who have been, respectively, Membership Secretary & Treasurer of the Group since the beginning.
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Sorry Susan, didn't mean to short change the name, just trying to keep things compact. My mistake.
I certainly didn't suggest, and wouldn't, that anyone in particular would or should, take up the issues mentioned by Marcus. It just seemed to me that if anyone WERE likely to go down that path, it would probably be - not necessarily SHOULD be - those people who hold office within the Group and have done from early on. As I mentioned in a previous post, one of the stated aims of the Group was to encourage ERMA as it was and now the newer body, and MPI, to permit all frits entry, based on reasoned arguments that none was a threat either to the environment or to the economy. If the Group has abandoned that aim, OK, so be it.
Our own Group is in no way comparable to that of the UK, FG of AGS, in that while it would be nice if our members are as enthusiastic for the genus, we do not have within our ranks those various people who are amongst the world's great authorities on the genus.
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As for why don't I take it on myself, it is absolutely true and accurate to say that on those occasions either within the NZ Trillium Group or the NZ Fritillaria and Small Bulb Group, particularly in its former guise of NZ Fritillaria Group, when I have volunteered for jobs or offered help in any area, it has been made very plain to me that my help/presence or involvement were not required, thankyou very much. One tends to lose interest when continually turned away.
Yes, we can certainly enjoy those we are allowed to have but I would be pretty b....p...off if, another Beethoven Violin Concerto being discovered in some attic in Bonn, to be told, "No, you can never hear it. You have one already, you may not have another."
I commend highly the work of a small team of members of NZ Iris Society, none of them more highly qualified than as iris growers and lovers, who took on ERMA and yes, it took time and commitment, but their research and dedication resulted in close to 100 more Iris species names and synonyms and many other Iridaceae being added to the permitted list. They too, were working people, people with families, jobs and all kinds of unrelated commitments.
And no, I didn't offer up names to take on MAF (now Ministry of Primary Industries), just hoped that those who have purported to lead our Group would, well, lead. It seems no amount of suggesting, nudging or encouraging is going to bring that about.
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Yeah, perhaps if you behave yourself and keep your head stuck under the table, you won't get raided at dawn! ;D
Those kinds of things happened in the dark days of East Germany when the Stasi ruled the roost and have no place in a modern(!) democracy. As I said before if that's the kind of regime your willing to allow to exist then so be it and you get the rules you deserve.
Anthony, you're very quiet, have you succombed?
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There may be one or two people who have construed the points I have been trying to make as my condoning illegal practices. The fact is I don't, although illegal practices do have a place sometimes when reasonableness fails and I think here of matters such as the introduction of the Poll Tax in the Thatcher years where sustained illegality (or civil disobedience!) achieved change. Our Italian friends have a way of dealing with laws they think of as being unreasonable or inappropriate, they just continue to ignore them.
Lesley is quite right in her comments about the NZ Iris Society and their successes. There are two choices it seems to me, either put in some time, effort and commitment and have a go at effecting change through strength of argument and approach or do 'nowt and just moan and in 20 years the system will still be the same.
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I had hoped that today this thread might have served, at least partially, as a place where fritillary enthusiasts could remember & celebrate the work of Erna & Ronald Frank & the Group they founded. Instead it seems to have turned into a venue for petty squabbles between forumists. A pity.
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I hope that the irritated people will have taken time to read the thread and see that ...
1) no-one has suggested that they personally must or should take on such representations
2) It is quite clear that it is being said that it is the Groups who are best placed to make such representations and that , if that were the case, then there are others who would offer support.
I think if the comments are read clearly then there is no such suggestion as complained about.
Obviously, if certain folk are highly visible officers in various Groups, they will tend to be the names mentioned in connection with seeking a basis for action.
I would think that the chance afforded by the forum to allow interested parties to make contact and discuss the vagaries and often downright illogicality of some of the regulations would be a useful thing.
It seems that there is reasonable discussion here that need not be disrupted.
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I had hoped that today this thread might have served, at least partially, as a place where fritillary enthusiasts could remember & celebrate the work of Erna & Ronald Frank & the Group they founded. Instead it seems to have turned into a venue for petty squabbles between forumists. A pity.
Sorry Gerry, me and my big mouth and I don't even grow Frits! Yes, that is a cause for celebration but I do wonder how many species the Franks collected over the years our New Zealand friends have been able to see and grow.
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Gerry this is NOT a petty squabble - I suggest tyou reasd the thread more carefully.
Cheers, Marcus
PS It has NOTHING to do with the UK Fritillaria Group
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And I fully endorse Maggi's comments. Its very disappointing when an attempt at a mature discussion is disrupted.
Cheers, Marcus
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Also there have been suggestions that taking this matter to the EPA has to be some herculean struggle. The bullets have already been made here on the thread. Its up to any NZ citizen or the Group, if they want, to fire them. No-one has to be an expert. Use the internet to do a survey to confirm what everyone already knows (that the genus fritillaria represents no environmental risk). Its then a simple case of presenting those facts to the EPA and asking the question.
At the very least the Group will know what they are up against or the very best the lack of evidence and logic behind individual assessments will be exposed.
Cheers, Marcus
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I'm sorry Gerry if it seemed the UK Fritillaria Group were being attacked. That is far from the case and I enjoy and profit by my membership of that excellent Group. If nothing else, it's such a pleasure to see good photographs of species which we may not grow or import to New Zealand. Marcus's comments and my own were born out of deep frustration with a system which is based on high and right principles but which is practised in such a way as utterly to preclude common sense and, frequently, the desired results.
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David you are right in that if no counter-action takes place, regimes like that of the former East Germany flourish. They not only flourish but expand rapidly. You know the (mis)quotation that it only takes people of good intent to do nothing, for evil to flourish. Haven't got the words quite right but you know what I mean.
It is a fact now that many major crimes such as arson, kidnap, manslaughter et al attract lesser sentences in New Zealand in many circumstances than the illegal import of animal or plant material. Of course we have a uniquely valuable environment in New Zealand and of course we must protect it but the resources for that purpose are frequently misdirected and sometimes with dire results. I notice that the instant fine for having an apple in one's luggage at the airport has risen from $250 to $400 recently. Yet horses, dogs and other animals are routinely imported for breeding and other purposes with very short quarantine periods, just a matter of weeks in fact. Anthony could confirm or correct this if he cares to. We can't even bring in a plant with 12 months quarantine because the associated costs are so high, literally thousands of dollars.
Enjoy what we've got and continue to do do nothing? OK, if you think the status quo will remain. But it won't. Most here would perhaps claim (smugly) no interest in politics but half an eye on this country's political regimes of any colour, and their associated and powerful lobby groups, will not only soon have all organic imports banned, including seed of exotic plants, but will set about ridding New Zealand of species already here and once that becomes a reality, the momentum will increase year by year. Doing nothing, and having no interest in politics are not stances of which to be proud.
If there is any doubt about the Stasi-like action of the plant police, read the link supplied by Ashley on page 37.
No more on this subject from me.
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Except that I can't resist, can I? I have just re-read the whole of this discussion since the posts re F. milasense and it seems there is a suggestion that because I have a nursery and will be the one to profit from any newly imported species, I have the financial resources and the responsibility to do the necessary work.
Yes, I have a very tiny nursery and love to have a few frits to sell but they are distributed for peanuts compared to the cost of raising them. I don't sell to make a living - few nursery people do nowadays - I sell because I have choice and sometime rare material which it is a pleasure for me to share. I give as much as sell and make a point of sharing rare or difficult material rather than risk it being lost altogether perhaps in my sole care. My nursery colleague near Gore has precisely the same attitude to her great credit.
As for financial resources, I am not able like some others to take an annual foreign foray. It has taken me 9 years to save enough for my upcoming 3 weeks in the Czech Republic and Scotland.
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Marcus & Lesley -
In Marcus' words read the thread. I have made no suggestion of an "attack" on the UK Fritillary Group nor that goings-on in the Antipodes are any concern of this Group.
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??? I am having a lot of trouble working out what you are on about Gerry.
There is a discussion taking place (or there was) about the illogical process that is in place in NZ regarding import restrictions on new fritillaria species. Your comments which were not about this at all but about the origins and the membership of the UK Group.
This is very important issue for antipodeans - maybe not for those whose boundaries extend only as far as Europe and who don't really have to contend with any quarantine issues.
Cheers, Marcus
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I think this has been an interesting discussion that raises a number of valid points and obviously some opposing views.
I think it is time and would appreciate if this thread could now move on.
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??? I am having a lot of trouble working out what you are on about Gerry.
Cheers, Marcus
My apologies Marcus. I hadn't realised that the Fritillaria thread was for the exclusive use of those in the southern hemisphere to raise their local concerns.
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Time and place for everyone Gerry. It is an international forum afterall.
Cheers, Marcus
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Can anyone advise the range / distribution of F. maximowiczii and F. dagana please? I've got as far as Siberia ( ::) ), and have now stalled. Thanks in advance.
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Going collecting Ron? ;D
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After a fashion, ;)
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8)
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F. dagana - Siberia ? Lake Baikal?
F.maximowiczii - East Siberia and N.E. China?
Care to come along David? ;D
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Nice offer Ron but I think anyone going to Siberia should be sent! ;D
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;D ;D You're probably right David ;D ... but.............. seriously .....
If anyone can offer contacts, travel advice, location data, general information, We would appreciate it. Thank you. 8)
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Perhaps Jānis can help you Ron.
A botanising trip to far eastern Siberia? I envy you.
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Still so much planning to do. Plenty of room available ;D ;D
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Thanks Ron 8)
One of my (various) ambitions - to learn survival level Russian then go wandering thereabouts ;D
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Flowering for me at present.....
Fritillaria camschatcensis. This one a dark form. I am awaiting another one to open, which is supposedly much paler a green with darker edging. That one multiplies freely, while the one in my picture has unfortunately never multiplied in the more than a decade that I've had it. :'(
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I have both a very dark form of F. camschatcensis, and a more greenish one. They both multiply freely, but in different ways. The new bulbs on the greenish form come up in a very tight clump close to the original bulb, while the dark form sends out root shots and the new bulbs are formed at the end of these shots, some times as far as 20 cm or more from the original bulb.
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Seems that the plants we grow as F.camschatcensis may well be three ( or maybe four ) quite distinct plants, that are more closely related to other Fritillaria than they are to each other. 8)
But then maybe some of us always 'knew' this and are just waiting for the scientists to confirm it! 8) 8)
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Seems that the plants we grow as F.camschatcensis may well be three ( or maybe four ) quite distinct plants, that are more closely related to other Fritillaria than they are to each other. 8)
I have had the same thoughts
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Ron and Magnar - please don't DO that! We don't want again, the same discussion that we have just finished ;D
My own camschatcensis bulbs are budding up well but nothing out yet. All mine are the green/black form and I'd like some red/black as well but it is one species that spreads about in a rather profligate way here.
Otherwise, my last frit in bloom is a pyrenaica, almost fully black with no other colour. Raised from FGAGS seed as pyrenaica lutea! I'd go and photograph it if the darned rain would stop. I don't think we've had a day this month without rain and almost every night as well. October is usually a beautiful month.
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;D ;D .............
Better not mention the Japanese species then !! ;)
:-X
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I repotted my Frit. davidii earlier this year. I was too late to catch it dormant last year. Anyway the leaves are through :)
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I repotted my Frit. davidii earlier this year. I was too late to catch it dormant last year. Anyway the leaves are through :)
maybe we could organise a pollen swap Shelagh?
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Most sincere apologies Lesley, but I really would like to follow up on this here. :)
As I look deeper and further into F.camschatcensis the variation that is within the species becomes more and more interesting. This is one of the Japanese plants. I certainly don't grow anything like it!
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%95%E3%82%A1%E3%82%A4%E3%83%AB:Fritillaria_camschatcensis_Kuroyuri_in_hakusan_2002-7-25.jpg (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%95%E3%82%A1%E3%82%A4%E3%83%AB:Fritillaria_camschatcensis_Kuroyuri_in_hakusan_2002-7-25.jpg)
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As I look deeper and further into F.camschatcensis the variation that is within the species becomes more and more interesting. This is one of the Japanese plants. I certainly don't grow anything like it!
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%95%E3%82%A1%E3%82%A4%E3%83%AB:Fritillaria_camschatcensis_Kuroyuri_in_hakusan_2002-7-25.jpg (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%95%E3%82%A1%E3%82%A4%E3%83%AB:Fritillaria_camschatcensis_Kuroyuri_in_hakusan_2002-7-25.jpg)
I do remember quite a lot of discussion about the variability and/or regional differences in Frit. camschatcensis - but I'm wondering if the posts I am thinking off where lost in the disappearance of the Old Forum format - I remember Clay Koplin showed some marvelous forms from his area in Alaska ..... :-\ I'll see if I can track them down.......
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Tsk! I think the posts I remember were in the old forum - found this interesting post from Clay about the growing habits of the plants though.... 8)
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=863.msg20440#msg20440 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=863.msg20440#msg20440)
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Thank you Maggi, a fascinating observation indeed.
Does this means that Clays posts of variation are lost forever? :(
I have been 'trawling' through as much of the published and internet material as I can get hold of, and still these pages seem to hold those 'gems' of information that are never seen elsewhere. So much of the printed / published stuff is just a total regurgitation of what was published previously by someone else! Not here. ;)
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Does this means that Clays posts of variation are lost forever? :(
Regrettably that is so Ron, and all the thousands of other great information there along with that. A real tragedy. Everything was done that could be done to effect a rescue, but to no avail. I cannot claim to understand the reasons, all I know is the degree of loss. :'( :'(
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A paper that may shed some light on the Japanese plants - but I don't have the full paper :
Phenetic diversity in the Fritillaria camschatcensis population grown on the Sapporo campus of Hokkaido University
Authors: Yamagishi, Masumi1; Nishioka, Miki2; Kondo, Testuya3
Source: Landscape and Ecological Engineering, Volume 6, Number 1, January 2010 , pp. 75-79(5)
Abstract:
" Triploid Fritillaria camschatcensis (L.) Ker-Gawler (2n = 3x = 36) is a wild species growing in the low-lying areas of Hokkaido Island, Japan, including the Sapporo campus of Hokkaido University. Many F. camschatcensis plants grew on the campus about a century ago, but we seldom find the plants nowadays and so a project to restore this species is being planned. Because preservation of genetic diversity and composition in populations has become a major target of conservation, this study compared variation in the F. camschatcensis population on the Sapporo campus with that in two other populations in Hokkaido. Phenetic variation assessed by 57 randomly amplified polymorphic DNA markers showed that the three populations were significantly distinct from each other; analysis of molecular variance showed 64.3% of variation (P < 0.001) existed among the three populations. Comparison of phenetic diversity on the Sapporo campus population with that in the two other populations showed that the Sapporo campus population contained large genetic variation despite reduced plant numbers. These results indicate that multiplying F. camschatcensis individuals on the Sapporo campus is adequate to restore the Sapporo campus population because this population contains enough genetic diversity, and that transplanting from other populations should be avoided so as not to introduce different genotypes into the campus. These results will be used to design the restoration strategy. "
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Thanks Maggi, I have the full article. if anyone one is really interested, this is the best examination I've found thus far. It does go off into genetics somewhat, but the obvious difference between the 'alpine' F.camschatcensis and the lowland ones is intriguing.
http://eprints2008.lib.hokudai.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/2115/26240/1/3(5)_P219-232.pdf (http://eprints2008.lib.hokudai.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/2115/26240/1/3(5)_P219-232.pdf)
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Thanks for the link to the full article, Ron.
Do you know this paper on the incidence of male flowers in liliaceae? It may have a bearing also ....
http://www.herbmedit.org/bocconea/24-301.pdf (http://www.herbmedit.org/bocconea/24-301.pdf)
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Thanks Maggi. It was in my box of stuff still to wade through ::)
A number of studies of this kind are around and are fascinating. When we look at F.camscatcensis, F.dagana and F. maximowiczii ( the stoloniferous members of the subgenus Liliorhiza )it seems seed set is quite rare, but veg. reproduction is 'the norm' leading to swift colonisation and insertion into newly available habitat. Maybe 'seperate sex' flowers has something to do with this. More swotting needed! ;D
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While the references to F.camschatcensis are limited in this paper, I thought it might be of interest to many forum members. A wide variety of flora and fauna are discussed and some unusual relationships uncovered. Maybe should have been on a different thread, but Frits do get a mention! ;D
http://russia.wetlands.org/Portals/5/WetlandsinRussia_Vol_4_English.pdf (http://russia.wetlands.org/Portals/5/WetlandsinRussia_Vol_4_English.pdf)
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Most sincere apologies Lesley, but I really would like to follow up on this here. :)
Sorry Ron, I was kidding you. After the debacle of some days ago I was saying we don't want to go down that road again. I'm all for reasonable and reasoned discussion every time and if that means F camschatcensis, why not? I take it, it is the apparently great variation available within that species you wish to explore? I probably can't contribute much as I said, all of my flowering plants are green/black and as yet I have none of the redder shades. However, soon after the late Alistair Blee of Edendale died, some of his seed of camschatcensis was offered in the seedlist of (the then) FGNZ and I ordered some, simply as a small memorial to Alistair whom I'd known for about 40 years I suppose. He had had over time, some fantastic plants and some of these are in the great rock-gardening world here now, fortunately. I know he had deep red/black F. cam... so I'm hopeful that when these flower perhaps in a couple of years, they may be of the redder colour.
The one in your link is very different from any I've seen and I think is very desirable too.
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I hope that I can get you, and anyone else who wants to try, some seed of these lovely Japanese ones one day soon Lesley. ;D ;D
In the meantime this popped into my inbox today. I thought it interesting enough to share. :)
http://www.tibettour.com/tibet-travel-information/tibetan-medicine-fritillaria.html (http://www.tibettour.com/tibet-travel-information/tibetan-medicine-fritillaria.html)
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Thank you Ron, that would be lovely. Those chequered forms are beautiful. Oh dear, I knew the Tibetans and Chinese use frits medicinally, several desirable species such as pallidiflora, yuminensis et al but to see a bowlful like like makes me want to cry. No wonder some plants (and animals) become endangered or extinct quite rapidly. :(
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Back when there was a lot of online discussion about Chen Yi's sales of plants and bulbs,
I read that several species of frits were field-grown for medicine in China, and it was assumed
that this was her source of some of her plants. This was more acceptable than the thought
of her ripping them from the wild.
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I noticed today that my F. tortifolia have noses appearing. I thought this a little early until I searched and found this on the bulb log -
http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2007/271107/log.html (http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2007/271107/log.html)
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This nice little article popped into my Inbox today. Thought it might be interesting for some, :)
http://www.rhs.org.uk/Plants/RHS-Publications/Journals/The-Plantsman/2012-issues/December/Cultivating-Fritillaria-eduardii (http://www.rhs.org.uk/Plants/RHS-Publications/Journals/The-Plantsman/2012-issues/December/Cultivating-Fritillaria-eduardii)
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Speaking of F. eduardii, we were packeting seeds for the NARGS seed ex a few days ago. One of our members came me and said "look at this!". It was a large pack of donated F. eduardii seeds. Compared to most on this forum, I am quite the Fritillaria novice. I've not seen eduardii seed before, but I have seen and germinated seed of F. raddeana and some of the other large seeded frits, like sewerzowii. These eduardii seeds seemed a thicker than what I'm used to seeing and what struck me most is their blond appearance - very light tan, like the true seed of Lilium martagon var. album. Is this normal?
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Here you go Rick, pictured here seed of F.eduardii.
http://www.fritillariaicones.com/info/Fritillaria_seeds.pdf (http://www.fritillariaicones.com/info/Fritillaria_seeds.pdf)
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This nice little article popped into my Inbox today. Thought it might be interesting for some, :)
http://www.rhs.org.uk/Plants/RHS-Publications/Journals/The-Plantsman/2012-issues/December/Cultivating-Fritillaria-eduardii (http://www.rhs.org.uk/Plants/RHS-Publications/Journals/The-Plantsman/2012-issues/December/Cultivating-Fritillaria-eduardii)
Interesting - not sure how a cross between "varieties" can be a hybrid though... isn't a hybrid a cross between species......
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Interesting - not sure how a cross between "varieties" can be a hybrid though... isn't a hybrid a cross between species......
;D ;D
I think there are a number of, can I say, 'questionable' statements made in this article Maggi. It certainly isn't a thorough examination of the species, :o
'Interesting' covers a very wide range ! ;)
Still very nice plants 8) ......................and ones I find very difficult to grow in the open garden, :( :(
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Hmm, well, I was being polite!
F. eduardii is doing quite well in our garden. It's a bit happier, I might say ( probably put the kiss of death on it right there!) than F. imperialis.(We are doing better with imperialis lately, with seed raised plants.)
Get some eduardii seed going Ron and you'll get some that are happy with you, I'm sure. Lovely things, really lovely.
I can quite see why they would be attractive for the cut-flower trade- good size and no foxy smell - but I have no real experience of how well they stand as a cut flower.
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You're absolutely right Maggi, I must get some going from seed. It is something that I keep meaning to do but always the Liliorhiza get in the way! :-[
I grow plants of the subgenus Petilium in large pots in a polytunnel. They grow fine but I really want to get at least F.imperialis outside. I will get busy with the paintbrush next year and get a load sown.
The best stand of F.imperialis I have ever seen was a group of a few hundred growing underneath a conifer hedge / feature at a 'stately home' outside York. I attended a 'specialist plant fair' there, but the only things I wanted to take home were this yellow forest of Frits. We have a length of leylandii ( !! ) that really needs to come out. The only thing that will save it is if I can establish some of these large Frits on the south side. I have a feeling the moisture sucking properties of this weed may help, ??? ???
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Interesting - not sure how a cross between "varieties" can be a hybrid though... isn't a hybrid a cross between species......
Not when it's an intraspecific hybrid. Any cross between different dog breeds would technically be one of these, for example.
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Quite so, Rob, but a long haired dachshund crossed with a rough haired dachshund is just a dachshund ;)
A variety is not a sub-species, is it?
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long haired dachshund crossed with a rough haired dachshund is just a dachshund
A cross between a Labrador and a Poodle represents a commercial opportunity though, whatever you or I may think.
Intermediate flower colours offer similar novelty and the plants probably also have a little hybrid vigour.
It doesn't really matter whether the parents represent different families, genera, species, sub-species or varieties, it's the bringing together of genes which would otherwise never be introduced to each other that makes a hybrid - the names just help us keep a handle on it.
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A cross between a Labrador and a Poodle represents a commercial opportunity though, whatever you or I may think.
;D ;D ;D Well, a glance at the adverts in the local paper here would certainly confirm that!
I've always thought that we humans are all bi-generic hybrids- after all, men are from Mars and women from Venus........ ;) :D
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I've always thought that we humans are all bi-generic hybrids- after all, men are from Mars and women from Venus.....
You must be a proponent of Panspermia then ;)
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You must be a proponent of Panspermia then ;)
Well, that's "life, but not as we know it" as Star Trekkin' would have it.......
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Here you go Rick, pictured here seed of F.eduardii.
http://www.fritillariaicones.com/info/Fritillaria_seeds.pdf (http://www.fritillariaicones.com/info/Fritillaria_seeds.pdf)
Thanks, Ron. In fact, I had downloaded that pdf 2 years ago, but I forgot I had it (!). And I also see there is quite a few added species in the interim. The eduardii seed I saw did have that unusual tint of color, too. Although still somewhat lighter in color, I think it would be normal.
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Speaking of F. eduardii, we were packeting seeds for the NARGS seed ex a few days ago. One of our members came me and said "look at this!". It was a large pack of donated F. eduardii seeds. Compared to most on this forum, I am quite the Fritillaria novice. I've not seen eduardii seed before, but I have seen and germinated seed of F. raddeana and some of the other large seeded frits, like sewerzowii. These eduardii seeds seemed a thicker than what I'm used to seeing and what struck me most is their blond appearance - very light tan, like the true seed of Lilium martagon var. album. Is this normal?
The few seeds I've had of F eduardii have all been the tan shade from Ron's illustration but of F. imperialis, at least as grown in the Dunedin Botanic Gardens, the ripe seeds of the orangey/reddish form is tan while those of the yellow form are pale, almost ivory coloured. This is handy as I was given a bag of mixed forms and was able to separate out for those to receive them.
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An interesting and useful tip, Lesley. And if you were thinking about my description of the seed being a bit lighter than that F. eduardii image, I did catch that the yellow form of F. imperialis might also be a candidate suggestion. Thanks. But the size is way too large, so I believe F. eduardii is correct.
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Not a new article by a long way, :) but this is a rather nice piece on F.eduardii.
http://www.fritillaria.org.uk/Articles/fritillaria_forest_by_leonid_bodnarenko.htm (http://www.fritillaria.org.uk/Articles/fritillaria_forest_by_leonid_bodnarenko.htm)
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Yes, a nice article. I missed it in the FG Bulletin, or my memory has lost it! I found it much easier to read here, by highlighting it. Came out blue and white instead of the black and yellow of the link.
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Yes, I remember reading that years ago, too. There was a lot of insight as to the species preferences in that location, as I recall.
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My Frit atropurpurea are germinating.a big thanks to a very generous chap.
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w481/davey1970/003_zps62a7e97c.jpg)
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A lovely end to 2012 Davey. 8) 8) New births, 8) 8)
Now we begin the new growing season, ;D
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The first leaf on a Rhinopetalum here 8)