Dysosma ID please!

[Peppa]

Hi everyone,

I got this plant as a Dysosma difforme but there are many pictures on the internet of this plant that don't look like this and I'm a bit confused... I've never seen mine flower but I was hoping someone out there might have some clues as to whether or not this is indeed D. difforme or something else! Any input would be appreciated! Thanks!!

[arisaema]

I used to grow that one, always assumed it was a hybrid between difforme and delavayi.

[Peppa]

Thanks Arisaema! Just curious, is this a naturally occuring hybrid? The person I bought it from said that the original plant came from China, but he didn't tell me exactly where...

[Afloden]

Does look like a possible hybrid, but I think that we may know more in the future. A group in China has recently published a paper on designing DNA primers for the group, which I hope, means that they will be producing a phylogeny.

 Peppa, will your plant be flowering? I cannot tell from the image.

 If you compare Shaw's treatment to the one in the Flora of China, there are major disagreements on the taxonomy and the synonymy of species. They even exclude several of Shaw's names. I have many plants currently coming into flower now and some from Arisaema!

 Aaron

[Peppa]

Thanks Aaron for your input! I will have to wait for a year or so to see the flower, unfortunately. I will ask the nursery what color the flower is and where on the stem it flowers.

It's good news that Chinese botanists are working on this genus! Shaw includes all Asian species of Dysoma within Podophyllum and I've noticed that most of the Western folks do the same... It's a bit confusing and I hope there will be more definitive information available soon!

[greenspan]

i guess i grow the same Podophyllum (origin from china labelled as "difforme"). my conclusion after some research is that this Podophyllum type might be Podophyllum versipelle ssp. versipelle. the plant doesn't match clearly difforme nor delavayi nor versipelle but shows parts of each species.
 
in stearns monograph "The Genus Epimedium...including the Genus Podophyllum", the co-author Shaw mentioned, that difforme probably originates by hybridisation under participation of delavayi, because the geographic distribution of difforme ranges along the southern distribution edge of delavayi (maybe that's the reason of the enormous variability of difforme). Shaw mentioned futhermore that difforme is the participant of versipelle spp. versipelle. once my plant flowered (made no photo  ), but the flower of our mistery plant has the same flower shape like versipelle. yijia wang sells the same plant labelled as "versipelle" (see linked photo here). so what we grow might be a natural hybrid of a natural hybrid beginning to be or already being a stable (sub)species.

if protected outside or stored in a frostfree greenhouse the plant is wintergreen + i assume it's natural habitat in china might be in warmer areas.

[Brian Ellis]

Lovely marking

[Afloden]

Greenspan,

 Your plant is very similar to the plants I have from SW Yunnan and also similar to the plants photographed in northern Vietnam areound Ba Vi. In Shaw these will key to difforme, but are, in my mind, most definitely not difforme. In Ying these will also key to difforme.

 Part of the problem here is the synonymy of this (and other) possibly good species. If we look at P. tonkinense in the strict sense (from the types and its region from whence it was described) this names seems the best fit for the plant you have pictured and I have growing. Shaw considered tonkinense a synonym of versipelle and Ying put it under difforme.  Here, http://www.fpcn.net/a/caobenhuahui/20131110/Dysosma_difformis.html, are pictures of difforme from China that have the short petals like the type specimens. My plants of "tonkinense" have clearly longer petals more like versipelle, but the leaves and the habit of the plant is very different.

 I am highly dubious of rampant hybridization in the genus in the wild and I have never seen specimens, nor images of plants in the wild where more than one species was present. I think the variation in leaf lobing and coloration might account for the reports of in situ hybridization between species that might occur sympatrically, but highly unlikely that within that range they prefer the same elevation or habitat.

 As I said, it does seem that someone is working on these from a molecular viewpoint so we may have a better understanding soon (or more confusion )

 Aaron

[greenspan]

thank you aaron for the informations. the different classification of this Podophyllum by shaw + ying might suggest the hybrid origin of this plant. i grow about 8 plants of this type. i grow them outside in my garden, well protected with leaf mould in winter. they are totally uniform, what might suggest to be a stable species on the other hand.

attached 2 photos of a Podophyllum in my garden, which i identified as versipelle. is this correct? within my recollection my "tonkinense" showed the same brownish-red petals + same flower shape.