VIOLA MANDSCHURICA KIRIGAMINE

[Growild]

Hi group

Just received seed of Viola mandschurica Kirigamine from the seed exchange number 4236 and wondering if the kind person who donated knew anymore about it as I can not find any reference anywhere? Thinking perhaps this was originally from a wild collection from Mount Kirigamine in Japan?

[Bart]

Hi Lisa, I have the same issue! Just searched if there is a thread on Viola in general, and I can't find anything really. This year I fancied trying some Violas, but don't know a lot about them at all. Just pricked out Viola Corsica from this years seed exchange, but there is no sign of germination in the pot of V mandschurica kirigamine, V. arborescens and some others that I forgot the name of just now.
Is there a wider knowledge base hidden in the SRGC anywhere?

[Maggi Young]

39 threads in the Forum with "Viola" in the title -  is there nothing there to help you ?
 Gerd Knoche is one of the forumists who is particularly interested in Violas .....  you might contact him.

 9 mentions of Viola arborescens ...... which seems often to be supplied as that but turns out to be V. elatior.... for instance  ..... 

[Bart]

Thanks Maggi,
I'll have another search around. I just wondered if I was not spotting an obvious place with information on Viola. Most- or should I say many- generae seem to have their own, named topic header. I did several searches, and found all sorts, but scattered all over the shop in all kinds of topics, and nothing dedicated in the same way as for, lets say, Cyclamen..
There is so much information that it is sometimes difficult to be sure I haven't missed anything. I also read your top-tips about how to search most effectively a while back, might freshen up on that. Or is it just that Viola isn't as hot a topic? As I said I don't know anything about them. My interest was triggered by some old perennial varieties I bought last year and their fragrance fills my greenhouse now, mixed with that of all the Cyclamen repandum group. Fabulous!

[Maggi Young]

It's just that violas do not seem to be that "hot" a topic, as you say!  Most  mentions are about  seed and ID ...

[Bart]

Not a lot going on on this thread, but I have a query.
I did get germination in my pots of V. Mandschurica 'Kirigamine' , V. chaerophylloides ;Beni-Zuru' and Viola arborescens, and on all of them I get instant seed pods, without any flowers. You can distinguish tine immature flowers right in the centre of the plants, but anything bigger is a seedpod which produces normal looking seed. Is it possible that some mini-beast pollinates the florets before they are even showing, so the flower does not develop? Is this perhaps happening in other generae?
Maggi, not sure where to post this query, perhaps you can move it somewhere else if you think that's better, or perhaps should there be a thread for Viola... Thank you!
Bart

[Gerdk]

Sorry, I found this discussion even today.

The hybrid Viola mandshurica x V. patrinii was called the Kirigamine sumire (sumire = violet) in Japanese. So it might be that the plant was named incorrectly by omission of the second parent species.

@ Bart: the phenomenon of seedproduction without building open flowers is called cleistogamy and is known from other genera than viola too. Pollination (selfing) occurs inside the reduced tiny closed flowers. The opposite of cleistogamy is chasmogamy (building open flowers).

Gerd

[Bart]

Thanks Gerd,
I thought I had learnt about it in a grey forgotten past... Is there a reason for it that you know of, and is there anything I can do about it? I would obviously love to see the flowers, because if the pics on the internet are anything to go by they are worth growing.
Please find attached some pictures of the plants.

[Bart]

Ahrrgg. Names not showing.
1st is Viola NOT arborescens
2nd Viola mandchurica 'Kigiramine'
3rd Viola chaerophylloides 'Beni-Zuru'

[Gerdk]

1st is Viola NOT arborescens

Bart,
Indeed - this is what you normally receive as 'arborescens' and it is probably V. elatior.

Your NOT arborescens will flower when you keep it outside and plant it in the ground.
The others are somewhat tender and shy flowering - maybe only with me - and until today
I don't know how to obtain open flowers. I agree they would be very showy.

Perhaps a Japanese member knows a solution to the puzzle.

Gerd

[Bart]

Thank you Gerd, I shall plant them around the garden. Regarding the other plants, would you say it is safe to offer seeds from these Viola for the seed exchange, without having seen the flowers? Or is it better not to bother?

[Gerdk]

Thank you Gerd, I shall plant them around the garden. Regarding the other plants, would you say it is safe to offer seeds from these Viola for the seed exchange, without having seen the flowers? Or is it better not to bother?

Bart, you are welcome!
Seeds built from cleistogamic flowers are ok, the resulting plants will be able to build open flowers when
they experience the conditions for that.
In the past I have sent a lot (if not the majority) of seeds of cleistogamic origin to the exchange.

Gerd

[kris]

I have seen a friend growing the shy flowering violas (viola pedata and pedatifida) in pure sand bed and  gets lot of flowers. In ordinary soil I have the same problem of no flowers.

[Roma]

I have noticed with Violas jooi, koreana and verecunda yakusinama growing in the greenhouse, they flower early in the spring but as soon as the weather warms up they stop flowering and produce cleistogamous seed for the rest of the summer.

[YT]

Sorry for my late response and hoping Lisa still remember this topic.

As far as I know, the name of “Kirigamine-sumire” is a (botanical) standard Japanese name and given to a natural hybrid between Viola mandshurica and V. patrinii, as Gerd mentioned. The natural hybrid is usually sterile because chromosome number between parents (V. mandshurica 2n=48, V. patrinii 2n=12) is different.

The hand pollinated hybrids delivered from same parentage as “Kirigamine-sumire” are named V. ‘Kirigamine’ by viola enthusiasts. The original hybrid plants are sterile but doubling their chromosome by polyploidizing treatment using colchicine to get seed fertility. Seed propagation is much easier than cutting to viola.

Probably Lisa got a seed propagated horticultural hybrid.

For reference, here is a link to picture search result by Google