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Author Topic: Re: 2009- some other anniversaries and asides  (Read 4293 times)

David Shaw

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2009- some other anniversaries and asides
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2009, 04:17:09 PM »
Gerry/Anthony, please keep talking. Forumists have many & varied interests and are always keen to pick up more knowledge. Just don't tell me that Darwin had problems with his digital camera & laptop :'(
« Last Edit: January 13, 2009, 08:30:34 PM by Maggi Young »
David Shaw, Forres, Moray, Scotland

Anthony Darby

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Re: 2009- some other anniversaries and asides
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2009, 05:34:45 PM »
I do remember a story about one of Darwin's sons handing him an animal he'd cunningly made up of various bits of others beasties, asking him to identify it. "Does it hum?" the old man asked. "Yes!" came the reply. "Then it's a humbug!" ;D
« Last Edit: January 13, 2009, 08:30:49 PM by Maggi Young »
Anthony Darby, Auckland, New Zealand.
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Gerry Webster

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Re: 2009- some other anniversaries and asides
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2009, 05:49:28 PM »
Gerry/Anthony, please keep talking. Forumists have many & varied interests and are always keen to pick up more knowledge. Just don't tell me that Darwin had problems with his digital camera & laptop :'(

OK David. Give me a bit of time & I'll produce a short, illustrated account of Goethe's ideas on the morphology of plants which might interest a few forumists. If Darwin was around today he'd almost certainly use a PC rather than a Mac.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2009, 08:31:06 PM by Maggi Young »
Gerry passed away  at home  on 25th February 2021 - his posts are  left  in the  forum in memory of him.
His was a long life - lived well.

Gerry Webster

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Re: 2009- some other anniversaries and asides
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2009, 09:37:41 PM »
Gerry/Anthony, please keep talking. Forumists have many & varied interests and are always keen to pick up more knowledge. Just don't tell me that Darwin had problems with his digital camera & laptop :'(
OK David. Give me a bit of time & I'll produce a short, illustrated account of Goethe's ideas on the morphology of plants which might interest a few forumists.
Goethe’s essay Metamorphosis of Plants was published in 1790. Although the essay is by no means easy to understand in detail  the broad outlines are clear enough. He argues that all the organs along the axis of the plant - style, anthers, petals, sepals, bracts, leaves - are, in some sense,  the the same. He seems to suggest that they are all modified leaves. His evidence for this  ‘sameness’ is the fact that leaves can be transformed into petals, as in the Tulips illustrated below, or the sexual parts of flowers can be   partially or entirely transformed into petals, as in the Primulas illustrated. This will be  familiar to many people in double or semi-double flowers.  These paintings were prepared for Goethe’s essay.

As far as I am aware this was the first account of what is now known as serial homology, the idea that there is some form of morphological correspondence between different organs of the same individual.

There is a different form of homology which is exhibited between the ‘same’ organs in different individuals,  a view again developed in the 18th century. The classic example is the limbs of different vertebrates. So, the forelimbs of birds, bats, horses & humans are said to be homologous - constructed on a common plan -  even though they look very different.

In The Origin of Species, Darwin addresses the question of the second type of homology  & claims that it can be explained if it is assumed that all the individuals showing  homologous organs are descended from a common ancestor. This is the mainstream - evolutionary - concept  of homology (see, e.g., Wikipedia). However, it can be argued that although evolutionary theory explains the distribution of homologies it does not account for their existence. Darwin also claims that Goethe’s serial homologies can be explained by descent but his account is, not surprisingly, obscure.

It is only in recent times that the limitations of evolution theory as a scientific  theory have been recognised. In recent years some biologists have begun an attempt to recover the 18th century  approach to  morphology & to reconsider homology in the context of a general critique of the explanatory power of evolution theory. Rather than turning to historical explanations of homology in terms of descent they are attempting to develop scientific explanations in term of how the organs in question develop during the life of the individual. Although this work is at a very early stage, in broad outline the claim is that the development of homologous organs involves modifications of the same basic developmental process. The aim is a general theory of development  which will either replace the theory of evolution as the central theory in biology or stand beside it.  This view has  been elaborated in a radical fashion to suggest the existence of a hierarchy of homologies & proposes homologies where none have previously been supposed to exist.

For anyone who wishes to pursue these ideas, I recommend the book which I suggested to Anthony - How The Leopard Lost Its Spots by Brian Goodwin. Although this is intended as a ‘popular’ book I should point out that it does presuppose a fair amount of knowledge of  biology.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2009, 09:43:43 PM by Gerry Webster »
Gerry passed away  at home  on 25th February 2021 - his posts are  left  in the  forum in memory of him.
His was a long life - lived well.

Anthony Darby

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Re: 2009- some other anniversaries and asides
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2009, 10:26:20 PM »
Very well put Gerry. I will definitely be taking this further.
Anthony Darby, Auckland, New Zealand.
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution"
http://www.dunblanecathedral.org.uk/Choir/The-Choir.html

fermi de Sousa

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Re: 2009- some other anniversaries and asides
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2009, 05:36:37 AM »
I do remember a story about one of Darwin's sons handing him an animal he'd cunningly made up of various bits of others beasties, asking him to identify it. "Does it hum?" the old man asked. "Yes!" came the reply. "Then it's a humbug!" ;D
OMG, Anthony,
my dad used to tell this story about 30 years ago! but he didn't say it was Darwin, just " a scientist"!
cheers
fermi
Mr Fermi de Sousa, Redesdale,
Victoria, Australia

Anthony Darby

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Re: 2009- some other anniversaries and asides
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2009, 12:04:14 PM »
Amazing what you remeber when being rocked to sleep in your pram Fermi? ;D
Anthony Darby, Auckland, New Zealand.
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution"
http://www.dunblanecathedral.org.uk/Choir/The-Choir.html

 


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