This is the photo at the start of the facebook discussion
Under this photo titled Iris helena (Elena süsəni). Yardimli district. Photo by Sabina Bunyatova from a Facebook page of Ecostyle – Azerbaijan, the following discussion took place ……… I’m copying it here because more people will be able to access this over time than on the FB page.
Ori Fragman-Sapir: beautiful! why not I. acutiloba ssp lineolata ?
Bulborum Botanicum: There is a small discussion about the subject here Ori , but my Azerbaijani isn't good enough
https://www.facebook.com/Ecostyle.Azerbaijan/photos/a.189716681083837.55650.188898247832347/872264816162350/?type=3Zeki Ikiz: WHICH PART DO YOU WANT TO UNDERSTAND, Bulborum Botanicum, I can translate for you..
Bulborum Botanicum : Can you translate the discussion why it is not Iris acutiloba
Ruslan Mishustin : Iris helena = I. acutiloba ssp lineolata
Bob Nold: Tropicos says I. helena is the accepted name.
http://www.tropicos.org/Name/16602561?tab=acceptednamesTropicos | Name - Iris acutiloba subsp. lineolata Mathew & Wendelbo
tropicos.org
Fred Blogs: It is no longer part of the genus Iris in the latest review of Iris....
Евгений Болтенков: You have accepted the view of the authors of the 0last review, if you can call it?!
Frederic Depalle: no longer part of genus Iris ?? This is quite funny
Fred Blogs: Not if you look at the whole morphology especially roots. I quite think it makes much sense.
Frederic Depalle : where did you find this informations . I'd like to read it...
Of course we could use again the old genus Oncocyclus from the 19th or create a new genus and split it into hundreds of species ( like for the orchids.. ) but in my opinion, this is stupid
Евгений Болтенков: The last article on the irises in the Phytotaxa (2015. 232. 1. 78 pp.), when it comes to it, once again excludes intrageneric taxa and increases the number of useless combinations of the irises names.
Fred Blogs: It is done with the latest genetic sampling methods which are now standard...
Frederic Depalle: I will read it... but don't trust genetic sampling .. several methods, different results... and lots of mistakes
Евгений Болтенков: Genetic methods have always been in botany helper methods. Until now, no one argued that genetic methods are standard.
Frederic Depalle: I totally agree with you.
Ori Fragman-Sapir: interesting, I would like to hear this change from an iris expert and not from a database ...
Bulborum Botanicum : Maybe Pat Toolan knows or knows somebody
Andi Rivarola : Jim Murrain or James Waddick - Do you have any information about this iris? See the thread above.
James Waddick: And, when I first saw this I thought it looked like a typical acutiloba lineolata type. Some of the confusion may be because the name helena is a synonym of the above. There is also the name I helenae presumably a synonym of I mariae, a different Onco species. We really don't have a good modern treatment. Rodionenko was most knowledgeable, but he never compiled details of his studies.
Bob Nold: It may have more to do with priority of nomenclature.
Iris helena K. Koch, published in Wochenschrift für Gärtnerei und Pflanzenkunde 13: 179. 1870.
The name Iris acutiloba var. lineolata Trautv. also exists, but there does not seem to be a date or citation for this.
There is an article by B. Mathew, 1974, Iris helena K. Koch. Journal of the Royal Horticultural Society, 99(
: 365-366 which I have not seen. I believe the Russian database Plantarium accepts I. helena.
Ori Fragman-Sapir: its also whether you lump several species together or not, we need an expert
Bob Nold: True.
Евгений Болтенков: The name Iris helena K. Koch needs taxonomic study. There is no doubt that I. helena is a heterotypic synonym for one of the species from the Oncocyclus group. It is possible that the name I. helena is synonymous with Iris iberica Steven. As for the photos, then it certainly shows the Iris acutiloba C.A. Mey. In general, Azerbaijan irises need a critical taxonomic work on what I said last spring Vugar Karimov during my visit to Baku.
Peter Taggart: There was an article on these Iris in the British Iris Society Species Group newsletter a few years ago. a large species and a small one, and two spots or one spot, also plants intermediate with other species. Luc Scheldeman, Arthur Nicholls do you remember the article?
Peter Taggart: I have found it.. B.I.S. Species Group Spring Bulletin 2007 page 48. A reprint of part of an article by Ken Bastow first published in the British Iris Society Year Book 1968. It includes line drawings. The B.I.S. Species Group also published in it's Winter Bulletin 2008/9 a name of a large flowered variant as Iris acutiloba subspecies longitepala
Евгений Болтенков : I do not understand where are these publications?! If the authors of these articles have seen the original material for the name Iris helena, then the article can be taken seriously. I did not see the original material for the I. helena.
Bob Nold: This might be of interest. Cotype of Iris acutiloba C. A. Mey. But note the additional annotation as var. lineolata. Now, if this is a cotype of Meyer's original collection, how can it be "var. lineolata"?
http://www.mobot.org/.../specimen-images/114/1851.htmlPeter Taggart: There is also an article by Paul Furse reprinted in the B.I.S. Species Group 2007 spring bulletin, page 77. First published in the British Iris Society Year Book 1977 where it was published with a black and white photograph of I. helena. Furse discusses Irises acutiloba, ewbankiana and helena as a group. He states that Rodienenko sank I fomini. Furse describes various populations and describes Iranian collections as I. helena C. Koch, but notes that they are "(quite different to I. helenae Barbey, which Werkmeister treats as I. mariae Barbey, or as I. barnumae var mariae Barbey), compared to the more precise and detailed Russian nomenclature, I feel reluctant to accept the Russian division into separate species. Werkmeister's catalogue follows Dr. Rodienenko, and accepts I. acutiloba C. A. Meyer var typica as being the same as var bimaculata and having "two spots" on the falls, and recognises as a separate species I. lineolata Trautv, with only one spot. These are clearly shown in Bastow's drawings (I Y B 1968)..... The name "I. acutiloba var demawendica" is referred to under the name I. demawendica and has no connection with the Russian and Iranian acutilobas." I. ewbankiana Foster - The true I. ewbankiana east of the Caspian, in Iran and in Russia, is so isolated geographically and has been so for such a very long time that this seems a good reason for retaining the name, as Bastow said; isolation may in time increase the differences between the Azerbaijan and the Transcaucasian plants of this group. The form in Transcaucasia which has been called ewbankiana seems to be covered by the names helena C. Koch or by lineolata Trautv....."
Евгений Болтенков: It's interesting, and it is the argument of different authors. The original material of I. helena nobody discussed in their articles. At the same time we must remember that the I. helena is described from the north-west of Azerbaijan.
Евгений Болтенков: I know about this specimen. It is not the original material for Iris acutiloba and I. acutiloba var. lineolata Trautv.
Bob Nold: It's not a real cotype?
Евгений Болтенков: No
Bob Nold: So this is a real mess, then.
Евгений Болтенков: No confusion there
Peter Taggart: if you need more than this; I will try to photograph the pages.... this is from the article by Ken Barstow, Page 49, B.I.S. Species Group. It does not mention the type specimen. "I.helena C. Koch (Figs. 2b,c,d,) [drawings] This dwarf Iris is closely related to and frequently confused with I. acutiloba. First found south of the river Kura by Koch and Hohenaker in the environs of Elizabethapol and Helenendorf, and later in the Karabage and Talysch. Synonyms are I. acutiloba C.A.M. var lineolata Traut., I. lineolata (Traut) A. Grossh., and I. szovitsii C.A.M. Iris helena differs from I. acutiloba in having standards and falls of almost equal length. They are mostly elongate-lanceolate in shape and normally acuminate. Plants collected in Kurdistan and Azerbaijan seem close to or identical with Russian plants, and show quite a lot of variation in shape and colour. I. helena has one spot only, in the centre of the fall near the end of the brownish beard. The colour of the segments is cream to pale violet, with brown violet, violet or almost red veins, and the signal patch varies from a local thickening of the veins to a triangular or circular patch. A form without a vein or signal patch was discovered and named by Grossheim, and a form without veins and a spot with cream standards and lemon falls by Ketskhoweli."
…..there might be a reference to the type specimen in W. R. Dykes book The Iris. -my copy is not accessible
Евгений Болтенков: Dykes (in The genus Iris, 1913: 111) also included the I. helena in the synonyms of I. iberica. Dykes did not designated in their work original material for the irises names
Peter Taggart: I feel that Furse would have known many of the populations of these Irises, and been familiar with the live plants,. He and Ken Bastow cultivated many Oncocyclus Iris, and I believe that they were well qualified to assess the species from living material and wild locations. I have never heard anything to discredit either of them.
Евгений Болтенков: M. Foster (in Garden (London, 1871-1927), 43) and B. Fedtschenko (1924, 1935) brought the name I. helena as a synoym for the I. iberica. They saw the original material of I. helena. But Koch's herbarium was destroyed in 1943. Mist likely the I. helena original material was not preserved. Therefore, I do not understand on what basis the authors of these articles do you conclude that the name I. helena is synonymous with I. acutiloba.
Bob Nold: Some of Koch's material may have been distributed in the 19th century...... "KARL Koch's HERBARIUM The rich collections made by the late Professor Karl Koch for disposal. His herbarium consists of 354 packets illustrative of various orders and specially interesting as containing the types of plants collected by him in the Caucasus as well representatives of the orders specially studied by him--Bromeliaceae Aroideae &c. The specimens of his dendrological pomological and agricultural researches would also prove very serviceable and we hope to hear they have been deposited in institution where they may be available for by horticulturists and botanists. We shall happy to give any further information in our as to this important collection." Gardener's Chronicle, 30-8-1879.
