Erodium 'Spanish Eyes'.

[alpinelover]

This is Erodium 'Spanish Eyes'. I have this cultivar for many years in the garden. It's not longlived, but this plant grows already four years in a tufahole and he is doiing very wel. It grows better in a tufarock. In the open soil, he dies quickly when the drainage is faultless.

My question: Is this cultivar a seedling of Erodium glandulosum or is it a cross between E. saxatile and E. 'Natasha'? Does any one know? I think, it 's the last possibility. Allan Robinson used to 'made' this cultivar?

[Maggi Young]

Several mentions of 'Spanish Eyes' inthe forum  mention it as  Erodium glandulosum 'Spanish Eyes'

A side point........ Marcus commented that it is similar to Erodium x kolbianum 'Natasha'  which is  E. rupestre  x glandulosum  - though he did not remember at that point what the difference might be!

 From what I can see on looking around various nursery listings, it seems that the foliage on 'Natasha' may be more silvery and furry looking. 

[Lvandelft]

Frankie, this link might be helpful:
http://www.geraniaceae-group.org/erodium_orchard_gem.html

I have Spanish Eyes already several years on a raised bed, where it is shortliving, but selfseeding .
Last year I planted one in a crevice bed, where it is doing well.
The plant I have has green leaves and not grey like E. Natascha.

[alpinelover]

Maggi, Luit, both thanks for the answer.
So,it's a cross between E. 'Natasha' and E. celtibericum, and not E. saxatile.

Luit, I have also seedlings of 'Spanish Eyes', but they are never the same as the mother plant, so I always destroy them. I increase them by cuttings.

[Maggi Young]

E. 'Orchard Gem' is certainly one to look out for I think. 

[Lesley Cox]

What a good plant it appears to be. We have 'Natasha' here but 'Spanish Eyes' looks more compact and certainly richer coloured and more floral. Very nice.

[alpinelover]

It's a great plant, Lesley. Especially in tufa, it's a very compact plant and it flowers from the end of april until the first frost!

[Lesley Cox]

A really good value plant then. I'll talk to Ger van den Beukan about it. He'll be here in November and may be able to bring a little seed. 

[Ziria]

Erodium 'Spanish Eyes' was a chance seedling from Erodium valentinum (the seed parent) back in the 1990's, the name is now correctly E. saxatile. The only Erodium it could have crossed with was a clump of Erodium 'Natasha' growing three to four metres away, a cultivar with a few dark secrets. I have noticed there are a number of poor versions of 'Spanish Eyes' being sold, obviously seedlings of the original, the photo here looks correct. There is no E. celtibericum in it nor should it be sold as a form of E. glandulosum, because it isn't.

The problem with Erodium 'Natasha' is that it is an old cultivar renamed around 1990 as 'Natasha'. Then a while after that, somebody decided it was a form of Erodium x kolbianum. E. x kolbianum is a hybrid of Franz Sundermann's and is a cross between E. glandulosum and E. rupestre. Descriptions given in old books do not match the plant sold today as E. kolbianum in my opinion. To prove it one way or another, Adrian Young, the Saxifraga Registrar at Waterperry and myself are crossing the two parents again using known material which is 100% true.

In the nineteen eighties, I collected together several plants of a hybrid being sold all over the UK, marketed under several names, none of which seemed very likely to be the truth. I took these to Dr.Peter Yeo at his office at Cambridge Botanic Garden, it took him up to five seconds to tell me these plants were all Erodium cheilanthifolium 'Bidderi' and that the plant originated many years before in Oxford. He stated that the production of semi double flowers early in the season typifies 'Bidderi'. There are photos of Peter Yeo's taken way back in the eighties, labelled as Erodium cheilanthifolium 'Bidderi' lodged at the library at CBG. Quite amazing that Dr Yeo had a time machine, because if you believe the NCCPG Erodium handbook, 'Natasha' didn't appear till after 1990. My view is that because everybody had lost the original name for 'Bidderi', it was easy to claim it was a new variety.

The Rev. Bidder was a Fellow of St. John's College and a keen alpine grower. He built a rock garden at the college and at one time even had help from Reginald Farrer. The present day Keeper of the Rock Garden found some old records for me and at about the time WW1 started, Bidder had quite a list of Erodium species growing there. I'm sure 'Bidderi' is a hybrid, it doesn't fully resemble the Erodium cheilanthifolium I saw growing on the Sierra Nevada in Spain years ago. It probably arose as a seedling from the E. cheilanthifolium growing at St. John's college, the other parent being a mystery at the moment.

A more in depth account of all this can be found at -

 http://www.geraniaceae-group.org/franz_s%C3%BCndermann_revisited_part1.html

Regarding Erodium 'Spanish Eyes' being short lived plant, my experience is quite different. Several factors are essential for a long lived plant, the Tufa mentioned is an excellent and natural environment although it will dwarf the plant somewhat. There are two very lethal problems encountered by Iberian species of Erodium, one is over watering. Never plant Iberian Erodiums of this type in the garden and then water your plants through the summer. Your Erodiums will be dead in no time. The other extremely important requirement is a very high pH, most Erodium species demand this, otherwise certain micro-fungi can exist in the compost and attack the Erodium. Although sun lovers, many crevice growing Erodiums do not like to become overheated, they grow at an altitude which keeps them cool and windswept. Drainage must be perfect.

I grow mine in 4 litre (sometimes 3) Hellebore or Rose Pots as they are often called. Very deep pots which are ideal for drainage. I mound crushed Cotswold Limestone at the bottom of the pot, the compost I make is full of ground chalk and some more pieces of limestone, sterilised loam, sharp sand, crushed grit and some peat free potting compost. Pot from the spring up till the end of June to establish the plants well, planting later often causes damping off as these plants do not require masses of water when they are used to Mediterranean summers. The species vary in requirements but only watering once the plant becomes dry, seems to keep Erodiums alive in summer, they will expect more rain later in the summer / autumn. Also, if the plant you purchased is grown in nursery peat based compost, make sure you shake the stuff of immediately and re-pot in something sensible, peat is lethal to Erodium plants when too wet or totally dry.

Mike Brett's Erodium 'Orchard Gem' is an excellent plant and supersedes 'Spanish Eyes', having larger flowers in greater numbers.

I will attach a photo of various form of the TRUE Erodium chrysanthum grown in the deep pots I mentioned. They also hava a collar of crushed Cotswold Limestone.

[David Nicholson]

Fascinating stuff.

[Maggi Young]

I agree, David - terrific to get this insight.

[Diane Whitehead]

I immediately checked to see which erodiums are offered in this year's SRGC and AGS seedlists.

Not many.  About a half dozen.  There are about 60 species.

And only 11 offerings in the Geraniaceae Group seedlist.