Erythronium 2008

[Ed Alverson]

Jim,

I just showed the photos to someone who is very experienced with identification of animal tracks.  He says that they are definitely canid tracks (because of the claws, as you mention), and give their size the must be wolf tracks.  So I stand corrected!

Ed

[Maggi Young]

 I was just going to throw in my opinion, when Ed came back with a definitive answer from his tracking pal. Yes, they're tracks made by a pretty big canine....given the area, that suggests wolf!  If I saw it on a woodland track here, I'd think very large dog!

Ian is going to very much enjoy seeing these new posts when he comes online in the morning, Ed!

Great to get an Erythronium "fix" in December!!

[Paul T]

Fantastic pics of a great Erythronium (and surrounding areas of course), Ed.  Great stuff. 

[Luc Gilgemyn]

Great shots Ed and very informative too !
Thanks a lot for sharing !!!

[Ian Y]

Great series of posts Ed showing one of the Erythroniums I have not managed to grow to flowering size.

I did receive some seeds many years ago as  E.  nudipetalum which germinated but slowly died off over a few years and never got to flowering size.

From what you show and describe it would seem that there is some argument for it being as good a species as some others and not just described as a subspecies of grandiflorum- the splitter lumper thing again.

Perhaps I should thry again from seed now I understand their requirements in cultivation better.

[ashley]

Fascinating posts Ed; many thanks. 

Your last picture (Reply #205, pic 019 background right) seems to show extensive forest die-back.  What's the reason for this do you know, and is it widespread?

[Gerry Webster]

Gerry,
Do you have a photo of your plant that you could post?  What was the name under which you received it?
Ed

Ed - many thanks for your response. Unfortunately, I didn't have a digital camera last year so I have no photo. If the plant is still alive I'll post a photo next year. It is some form of E.oregonum,  pale yellow which fades as the flower ages.  I received the plant as E.citrinum which it certainly is not.

[Ed Alverson]

Your last picture (Reply #205, pic 019 background right) seems to show extensive forest die-back.  What's the reason for this do you know, and is it widespread?

Ashley,

What you are seeing is areas burned by recent forest fires.  There were particularly extensive fires in the Bear Valley area in 2006 and 2007, but they were also very patchy, burning some areas completely but then jumping across large stretches, leaving them un-burned.  The visual effects are very striking. 

I have noted in my articles on Erythronium that erythroniums (and other lilies) often respond very positively to forest fires.  Plants in burned areas receive increased sunlight and also benefit from a "fertilizer effect" due to nutrients that are released when fuels burn in to ashes.  However, I did not see E. grandiflorum ssp. nudipetalum growing in areas that burned in Bear Valley, so I can't really say anything about whether this more general observation holds the specific situation of Bear Valley.

Ed

[Ed Alverson]

From what you show and describe it would seem that there is some argument for it being as good a species as some others and not just described as a subspecies of grandiflorum- the splitter lumper thing again.

Ian,

This is exactly the point I was hoping to make, that there are various ways that one could view this situation.  Elmer Applegate actually first described it as a full species, Erythronium nudipetalum, and it was another botanist who made it a subspecies of E. grandiflorum.  Other taxonomists who chose not to recognize nudipetalum as a valid taxon of any kind did not (as far as I know) have the benefit of seeing the populations in the wild, to see the patterns of variation and how they differ from typical forms of E. grandiflorum (which apparently do not grow in the immediate vicinity of Bear Valley, at least).

One difficulty, however, with treating nudipetalum as a full species is its evidently close relationship to E. grandiflorum ssp. grandiflorum.  It would appear that nudipetalum is more closely connected, in an evolutionary sense, to ssp. grandiflorum, that the white and yellow anthered ssp. pallidum and chrysandrum, respectively.  Some taxonomists, at least, would say that if you consider nudipetalum to be a distinct species, you would also have to treat ssp. pallidum and chrysandrum as full species as well.  But anther color is not a completely reliable trait so most experts have only been willing to view them as varieties or subspecies, if anything.

Myself, I don't worry too much about getting caught up in having the "correct" taxonomy, I'm more interested in learning about the plants themselves, their patterns of variation, and their geography, ecology, etc.

Ed

[Susan Band]

Ed,
I wonder if you could do a big favour and look on my website to see if my Erythroniums are correctly named, or at least a good close attempt. All the Americans were grown from wild seed from Ron Ratko or Alplains. Since they take so long to grow from seed often they are mixed up by the time I get them to selling size.
Thanks
Susan

[Ian Y]

Myself, I don't worry too much about getting caught up in having the "correct" taxonomy, I'm more interested in learning about the plants themselves, their patterns of variation, and their geography, ecology, etc.

I agree with you Ed while I am interested in knowing the correct names of the species it is the plants that are fascinating. It seems that the taxonomists keep moving the goal posts as they move from taxa to taxa as if they are changing the rules to make them say what they are expecting.

To me Erythronium howellii and E. citrinum only differ in that citrinum has the swollen appendages at the base of the floral segments while howellii has none - a similar situation to E. citrinum and nudopetalum. This is all based on morphology of course - the excitement will come when a complete phylogenetic study based on DNA is published.

It is some form of E.oregonum,  pale yellow which fades as the flower ages.  I received the plant as E.citrinum which it certainly is not.

Gerry most so called E. citrinum I have seen in the UK is either E. oregonum as you describe, or a hybrid so this is common. There are some correctly named plants around and are easily identified from the hybrids and oregonum by the slender shape of the filaments.

[Ed Alverson]

Ed,
I wonder if you could do a big favour and look on my website to see if my Erythroniums are correctly named, or at least a good close attempt. All the Americans were grown from wild seed from Ron Ratko or Alplains. Since they take so long to grow from seed often they are mixed up by the time I get them to selling size.
Thanks
Susan

Susan,

I took a look at the photos of the western Erythroniums on your web site and to be honest is is a bit difficult to confirm with certainty any of the white to cream flowered species from your photos because you really need to see the details of the flower parts for the technical confirmation.  For example, Erythronium oregonum ssp. oregonum and E. oregonum ssp. leucandrum have the right look to them, but I would like to see the flattened stamen filaments to say for sure.  Erythronium howellii should have thin anther filaments and very short style branches (if any), and the appendages found in the base of the inner tepals in E. citrinum should be lacking in E. howellii.  E. californicum is similar but it has much longer style branches than Either E. citrinum or E. howellii.  E. helenae looks good, note the yellow center to the flower without the zig-zag red or yellow bands.  The style should be bent rather than straight.  However E. helenae is "supposed" to have yellow anthers (compared to the white anthers of E. californicum).  E. multiscapoideum is similar to E. californicum except the inflorescence is branched below ground, making appear that there are two flower stalks.  If you would like to follow up on this topic next spring, maybe you could post some more detailed close-up photos on the forum for us to review.  But at the level of detail I can see, nothing looks obviously mis-named.

Ed

[Susan Band]

Thanks Ed,
 That was really helpful to make sure I wasn't making an obvious blunder. When they are growing each one quite distinct by the 'feel' , different flowering time, bulking properties etc. but I know it is difficult to tell by photos.
I will try to take better photos for identification in the spring, but at least people aren't going to be too disappointed when they order.

Susan