cyps in pots 2013

[monocotman]

Kristof,

great to hear about your cultivation techniques.
It is always interesting to see how others succeed.
I'm interested to know why you think that plants grown in inorganics are more likely to
suffer frost damage than plants grown in organic mediums in pots.
Have you seen any direct comparisons that show this to be the case?
I'd love to see some evidence.
Also - why do you think that Mark's plant will recover more quickly in an organic medium than an inorganic one?
We all know how cyps live in the wild.
I'm sure that many cyp growers on this forum have Cribb's monograph and have read the relevant chapters on how to grow the species in pots.
The reason we use inorganic mediums in pots is to do with the consistent free draining physical properties of the medium more than anything else.
You can also grow pretty much all the commoner species in the same medium.
It is an issue of practicality.
I'm sure that quite a few people would grow their cyps 'au naturel' if it were as easy as using inorganics - it is a question of access to the substrate and consistency of performance.
I'm not sure that there are many people that want to go round the country looking for suitable clay soils. I certainly don't have the time.
For many hybrids, growth in inorganics is as easy as falling off a log and increase in size is quite startling.
What is the point of moving?
Do you have any photos of cyps growing in organics in pots for several years?
This is the acid test - organics have a tendency to break down and this is swiftly followed by plant death as the medium becomes anaerobic and the roots die.
Plants grow for a year or two and then die off.
Or you have to repot them annually or every two years and this then sets them back (cyps hate repotting) and they never reach any size as they are constantly re-establishing themselves.
You can leave cyps in inorganics for five years and they are fine.
Take a look at this photo - it was taken today.
The back row closest to the greenhouse shows hybrids in large 12 inch pots, all are in super coarse perlite.
Most are between 15 and 25 growths.
In a few weeks these will give a super display.
It would be all but impossible to do this with an organic medium.
However I would love to be proved wrong!

Regards,

David

[K Andrzejewski]

I'm interested to know why you think that plants grown in inorganics are more likely to suffer frost damage than plants grown in organic mediums in pots.

David - first time I hear, that covering my pots with layer of compost means - I'm growing something in organic compost. Cypripedium are planted in clay soil. Pure clay is a sedimentary rock build from minerals - is absolutely INORGANIC. However, every soil contains more or less but allways organic particles (like humus - that's not important now), for example under the turf on old clay soil is enough organic materials for every european orchids, for Cypripedium too. If someone don't want looking for clay?? This is not my business, but one is for sure - if I will be more lazy then now, I will order top-soil or John Innes online and mix them with crushed chalk or marble (gravel from B&Q).
Kristof

P.S.Could you please show us picture of your pots from January or February??

[monocotman]

Ok, so are you are saying that the clay is acting like the inorganics the rest of us are using?
Can you show a photo of the clay you use?
How does it pack down in a pot?
How quickly does a pot drain when you use it?
The pots you see in the photo look just the same in the winter as they do now.
They spend the winter in the garage out of the worst of the weather.
There is no extra heating and they're watered once around Christmas time.
I top off the pots in the final inch with hydroleuca which is why you cannot see the perlite.
It is prettier to look at than perlite and acts as a mulch.
It also seems to prevent any slug damage,
Regards,
David

[K Andrzejewski]

Ok, so are you are saying that the clay is acting like the inorganics the rest of us are using?

I never-ever told this, since years I’m trying to explain something absolutely different: no other material, natural or artificial, no other is working like clay minerals do. There is very simple method to confirm this and try at home: take a plastic bowl, put a cup of gravel inside and add same amount of water. And now use anything you want - please remove gravel from this mix. This will take you about 1 minute to take other bowl, kitchen sieve and gravel is back in your hands. The same you can do with pumice, tufa, keramzite or baked clay pellets, hydroleca, perlite, pouzzolane, even sand if you use suitable sieve. Vermiculite is a mineral with very similar structure but is a bit different, so will be probably swimming on the water but you can simply remove all amount the same way.
-   And now – please take a dry clay, crush with the hammer and mix with water and after 5 minutes try to remove the same way like you did before with all other materials… My suggestion – try this when you are alone and outside the house, if someone will see what are you doing… and probably the shower will be necessary if you try to help yourself using hands. Why clay minerals are acting that way? This is other story, no time today.

There is only one way to remove water added to clay, is temperature – and time, this can not happen in 5 minutes, so before natural bentonite will turn to cat litter, heat treatment is necessary. And this is exactly the process our European orchids are using – for example Anacamptis morio is in stage of dormancy when clay is dry and the meadows/pastures/chalk grasslands are turning yellow in the summer time. But when autumn arrives and first rains are making clay back wet, green winged orchids is starting to wake up – and will grow until the end of spring in next year. Is this not simple to understand???

Kristof

P.S.

Species from the macranthos and tibeticum complex will struggle in beds with the winter wet..

I will probably cover pots with them in November, but until now I keep them without any cover at all.

[monocotman]

Kristof,

thanks, very interesting but what exactly are you describing when you talk about adding hammered clay to water?
I think I'm missing the point.
I'm assuming that the clay particles go into suspension and 'sort of 'dissolve to make a sort of gloopy mix.
As clay is made up of very fine particles then this is not entirely unexpected.
How does this fact help with the culture of cyps in pots?

Thnanks,

David

PS I will not be trying the hammered clay in water experiment!

[K Andrzejewski]

what exactly are you describing when you talk about adding hammered clay to water? I think I'm missing the point.

hammered - because you can't take dry clay with a cup when is dry, is turning to very hard stone and you need to wait until the clay will absorb all amount of water; this can take maybe 15-30 minutes.

I'm assuming that the clay particles go into suspension and 'sort of 'dissolve to make a sort of gloopy mix. As clay is made up of very fine particles then this is not entirely unexpected.

yes and no; yes - because clay particles can be suspended in water, no - because not always only size of particles is important factor. The best example for is quarz, main component of (mostly) every sand - you can crush mechanically grains of quarz and turn them to powder, so you can rich clay minerals fraction too (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sedimentary_Rock_Chart.png) but the end product will never have the same properties like clay. There is natural rock with such genesis - loess, product of accumulation of wind-blown dust (silt) from the glaciers. Someone who know Birling Gap cliff in East Sussex http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birling_Gap#Birling_Gap
can observe natural geological profile with loess lying on chalk.

How does this fact help with the culture of cyps in pots?

- is protecting roots, rhizomes and tubers against frost in the winter time, against drought in the summer time, and all year around against infections, rotting etc. (of course in a limited way and not always)
Regards -
Kristof

[monocotman]

Thanks for the explanation.
I'm looking forward to seeing this in action.
Please post photos when you can.
How long have you been growing your cyps in this medium?
David

[Botanica]

Young cypripedium reginae form last year..survived and have a good grow !

My medium look good and very simple to growing cypripedium..look the resut 



Focus into Cyp.formosanum

[Corrado & Rina]

What is you compost composition, Botanica?

[Botanica]

Hello corradoerina

The composition of my cypripedium soil is very simple.

below the planting hole some pouzzolane

The Mixing.
1/3 heathland soil
1/3 garden soil if good soil with ,natural humus
1/3 river sand (only this one)
and I always add a little perlite... if I have.

above  pouzzolane for slug and snail and others ...

Other used Vermiculite and Perlit in mass, someone only in mineral soil but the price is more and it's not really natural for me.

Have you cypripedium in the garden..some pictures of your's ?

Have a good day and a great cypri season !

[Anthony Darby]

It looks like a very gritty mix round the roots.

[Corrado & Rina]

1/3 heathland soil
1/3 garden soil if good soil with ,natural humus
1/3 river sand (only this one)
and I always add a little perlite

Ciao Botanica,

A lot of questions :-D

1) What is heathland soil?
2) What is the climate where you are? Your compost looks very moisture retaining.
3) River sand .... is it very fine or rather coarse?
4) What is exposition of the garden? South, North, ....?

Best,
Corrado

[Botanica]

Anthony Darby, the mix around the root, is the mix of culture when i received the young cypri. I  use always the original mix with my own composition of soil.

Corrado, Heathland soil is a traduction of "terre de bruyère" in French  form heather = bruyère in French

My climat is the climate of Ardennes in France (T° min = -22°c and max = around 35°), it' rain a lot and i need drained medium of soil.
River sand, it's very very fine sand i found that neat the house in Belgium.
The exposition of the garden is medium but i have many area with protection of the sun in semi-shading area.

I hope my responses help you so much 

See you soon..and if you have seed for exchange ...tel me for my Germination Project

Have a good day.

[Corrado & Rina]

Corrado, Heathland soil is a traduction of "terre de bruyère" in French  form heather = bruyère in French

My climat is the climate of Ardennes in France (T° min = -22°c and max = around 35°), it' rain a lot and i need drained medium of soil.
River sand, it's very very fine sand i found that neat the house in Belgium.
The exposition of the garden is medium but i have many area with protection of the sun in semi-shading area.

Terre de bruyere is good for me!

See you soon..and if you have seed for exchange ...tel me for my Germination Project

What type of project?? We are starting a similar thing!

[Botanica]

I have a "educational" project around Alpines plants and some others.

I have start the project in the middle of 2012 too collected seeds and i make 400 pots for germination's.

The first seed germinated in late April and probably more this week.

I take many photos of seed germination stages to the adult plant. Before i make a microsoft powerpoint slide show (.ppt) the demonstrated the life cycle of plants .

I probably make picture of PPT in the forum (if some are interested in) .

Actually i am motivated me to collected more species for the next step in 2014 ! Because i don't want to stop the project.

You know all