cyps in pots 2013

[Anthony Darby]

Lovely plants. If these can be grown in the Balearics there's hope for me here.

[K Andrzejewski]

...Vermiculite - Perlite - Pouzzolane...

- please take a look on the second picture (Manne 12 of May 2012 20:47):
http://www.orchideenkultur.net/index.php?topic=21864.135
Cypripedium pubescens divided in 3 pieces of same size but first two rhizomes from the left planted in mix of clay soil & sand (or loam soil), plant on the right side - in a mix similar to the list above (pouzzolane is a lava, volcanic ash). Conclusions??

[Anthony Darby]

Fascinating. The use of free draining substrate in my case was because of the frequently free draining sky. With clay and garden soil they would have rotted and died, but here they thrive. Was the fertiliser used the same?

[K Andrzejewski]

Was the fertiliser used the same?

- Anthony, why you think, you need to add fertiliser??? I'm sure, you know "Multi-Purpose Compost" from the garden-supermarkets, if you ever have read "instruction" on the back of every bag they sell, you could see something like that:
"there is completely nothing inside me, just peat mixed with shredded wood and some other things and if you are so clever to buy me for your pots & garden, so go back to our shop and spend more money because without our fertiliser your plants will never grow".
I think this is very simillar situation.
Kristof
P.S. Because of the construction of this bed, Manfred added some fertiliser, I can ask him if you like. I'm putting on the top of my pots mostly my own organic compost.

[Anthony Darby]

That would be a no then?

[monocotman]

Growing cyps in pots compared to beds or borders is not the same.
The physical properties of the two systems are very different.
Cyps need air to the roots to survive.
In a pot, it is very difficult to maintain this for any length of time with organics.
The compost will slump or degrade at some point and then the roots die quickly.
If you were to grow those pieces of pubescens in the same soils in a pot
the probability is that the situation would be reversed and the best grown plants would be
growing in inorganic media.
Cyps grown in organics in a pot can survive and grow but you must be either lucky or an extremely good grower.
There is plenty of discussion on this topic in older posts in this section.
If you use inorganics then cyp culture in pots goes from being difficult to fairly easy.
Using large pots and mainly super coarse perlite or other similar products turns cyp culture into something attainable for most people who like to grow these plants.
The compost never degrades and you can grow the plants in the same pot for several years without repotting (something that cyps hate) and end up with large specimens of 20+ growths.
The only illustrations I've seen of successful cyps in pots with organics is Svante Malmgren on his web site.
But he has a fantastic source of loose pine duff surface soil from the local woods (not available to most of us) and he uses clay pots which aids drainage and air flow round the roots.
Plus he only seems to use this for his youngest seedlings - they are planted out fairly quickly after 2-3 years,

Regards,

david

Regards,

David

[K Andrzejewski]

Before I'll be able to answer - a small question:

But he has a fantastic source of loose pine duff surface soil from the local woods (not available to most of us)

- could You please explain what is so extraordinary in this forrest? A heavy clay soil from the wood growing on sandstone (what kind of sandstone this is other story) is something unusually for you? There is no more wood where I live now ( only small relicts in local parks) but the clay is still
everywhere around - it's called London Clay Formation, please take a look for example
in Wiki.
Kristof

[Pauli]

Today I bought this pot in a local garden centre. I think, it is true fasciolatum, not so bad for around 15 pounds. I friend bought a pot with 6 flowering shoots!

[monocotman]

Kristof,

here is a quote direct from Svante Malmgren's web site.

 (http://www.lidaforsgarden.com/Orchids/cypripedium_eng.htm)

 ''For Cypripedium seedlings we use the top 10cm layer of a soil derived from mixed coniferous and deciduous woodland. The soil is naturally well draining and we always use clay pots. This combination provides good drainage and good close contact between the roots and the soil.''

So if you can find soil of this type you could grow cyps successfully in pots.
However I cannot!

I find it much easier to go to the local agricultural supply store and buy 100 litre bag of super coarse perlite for about £18.
This stuff never breaks down and the plants grow very well in it - much better than shown in the photo.
Hybrids can double or triple in size each year once established.
Check out some of the 'cyps in pots' threads for previous years.

Regards,

David

[Jeff Hutchings]

When I started growing cypripediums in large numbers in 2002 the only information around was in Cribbs cypripedium book which made growing look very difficult. Svante was the first person to give me advice and he sent a sample of the soil he uses. For a couple of years I used a similar soil in my pot mix but found losses in the summer through root rot rather high. I then moved onto a Seramis mix (30%) that still did not work because of my automatic watering system, which kept the seramis too wet. Some five years ago I met Peter Corkhill and was amazed by the quality of the plants in his garden and pots. Most plants were actually in large pots and if in the ground  plunged. The mix consisted of pumice, perlite, cornish grit and composted bark. The amount of bark depending on the species or hybrids. This has proved very successful both in the garden at home, my show pots and the large number of sales pots I sell each year. This system works well provided I water the pots well and feed regularly throughout the season.

As others have written before, cypripediums grow mainly in very open free draining poor soil. Only a few can tolerate compacted soils with little aeration.

With regard to clay pots. Plunged in the ground fine but if not they can dry out very rapidly causing stress to the roots and rhizome. The best idea is to put the plant into a plastic pot and then into a terracotta.

As a trial I left a quantity of pots outside for the whole of the winter. The results have been excellent with nearly all the plants regrowing this spring despite the amout of rain and then the snow and frost. For me they are the easiest of the hardy orchids.

Jeff

[K Andrzejewski]

For me they are the easiest of the hardy orchids.

- I agree absolutely and only one different is: I'm keeping my all Cypripedium in terracota pots standing outside the house, planted in clay covered with huge amount of my mostly own pure organic compost all year around. Despite rain/frost/rain/frost etc. periods in the winter time and drought in the hot summer time.

[monocotman]

Kristof,

I'm interested to hear how you grow your cyps.
Can you give some more details?
Are the pots plunged? What size are they?
What species/hybrids do you grow?
Thanks,

David

[K Andrzejewski]

''For Cypripedium seedlings we use the top 10cm layer of a soil derived from mixed coniferous and deciduous woodland. The soil is naturally well draining and we always use clay pots. This combination provides good drainage and good close contact between the roots and the soil.''

S.Malmgren is trying to explain to everybody in the most understandable way how to grow orchids from seeds (in-vitro asymbiotic method). According to many discussions I saw on different european internet forums, in my opinion - he need to do this many many years more because people don't want to understand. Last sunday on the Hardy Orchid Society meeting in Kidlington near Oxford, more than hundreds of orchid growers/enthusiast could see and hear how Chairman C.Wright on the end of S.Malmgren speech asked that question:
- your soil from the forrest is clay soil, therefore heavy soil?
- yes, this is heavy soil, very heavy, I'm adding 25% sand to this soil
But now we have found next problem - how to find in UK forrest similar to this in Sweden...
David - in Great Britain and Ireland they are milion places with clay suitable for orchid-mixes. Most easiest way is - just take geological map of UK and look where is the nearest limestone/dolomite/chalk deposit. A couple of years before I visited quite often industrial site in abandoned chalk quarry (North Downs Business Park/Limepit Lane, Sevenoaks) where with a little help of foxes I packed just straight to the car what these animals have dug out from the slope.Now I'm too lazy so I'm using clay from my garden.
Kristof
P.S. Cypripediums are on the begining of vegetation now...

[monocotman]

Kristof,

very interesting.
I am looking forward to seeing photos of your plants.
However I don't have the time to go looking for soil that may or may not work when I can buy something that is very reliable from the local store.
I'm very happy with the growth of the cyps in perlite.
All my plants grow in exactly the same compost. The only difference is the rate of feed.
Species receive quarter rate and hybrids full rate - it is all very straight forward and when you don't have a huge amount of time, it makes looking after nearly 100 pots possible.
If you look at the complicated recipes for growing cyps using organics in Cribb's book then it would put off many people.
So many different composts each with different rates of various difficult to source soils!

Regards,

David

[SteveC2]

I have a problem with the idea of collecting soil to grow cypripediums in, the same as when people ask why I don't collect leaf mould to use with my other hardies.  Every beech woodland within miles is a nature reserve and the idea of taking a bucket and spade to one of these venues is just a non starter.  I get fed up being asked "where did you dig that plant up?" as it is, so I'm not going to provide people with ammunition.   

Even collecting fallen beech leaves into a dustbin bag to make my own leaf mould raises eyebrows on the local rec, although I'm sure some people think that I'm involved in the Community Payback programme and am clearing them away as punishment.

And if, after hours spent looking, I found some suitable clay soil, I don't think that the local farmers would be overly happy with me digging in their fields to collect enough soil for fifty plus pots, so what do I do?  Clandestine raids after dark?  I'll probably get shot by the gamekeeper. 
Seriously the whole idea is a non starter.  I'll stick to perlite and pumice.