Paeonia 2013

[Gail]

I had a look at Hong's Peonies of the World and found, that P. kavachensis Azn. from E. Turkey is now a synonym of P. mascula subsp. mascula, whereas P kavachensis auct. non Azn. is P. daurica subsp. coriifolia. Quite confusing, isn't it? 

Very confusing!

[Matt]

Very confusing!

Shall we add to the puzzle P. caucasica and P. ruprechtiana? Together with P. kavachensis they seem now to be all inside the same name of P. daurica ssp. coorifolia. Only the knowledge of the exact provenance is the key to the problem.

Gail - with regard to your P. mascula clump - do you know the exact origin of the seeds you received from the Alpine Garden Society? Morphologically your plants seem similar to those from Calabria or Puglia (Gargano).

And what about your P. kavachensis from East Turkey? Is it from wild collected seed? Is definitely not P. daurica ssp. daurica (have a look at Thomas' plant...those are the "correct" leaves). To me it looks more similar to what was called P. caucasica that grows in the W Caucasus (Georgia rather than E Turkey)...or it is P. mascula ssp. mascula.

In the first & second pic it is P. caucasica at Berlin-Dahlem BG from a seed collection in Georgia by the Komarov Botanical Institute. The third pic is my plant of P. caucasica from Rareplants and P. kavachensis at Kew in the fourth pic (also from St Petersburg BG).

I do admit that P. ruprechtiana could be only a variation of P. caucasica ("selected" by Tibilisi BG) with emerging leaves of deep copper colour and darker flowers...

http://www.paeonia.ch/gmbh/ruprechtiana.html

...but P. kavachensis is slightly different esp. in the leaves...may be more similar to P. daurica ssp. daurica but bigger in all its parts.

HENDRIK...once you told us that you saw P. kavachensis it in the wild in deep shade...where was it? Have you got pics of it?

M.

[Gail]

I think the mascula was garden seed (but obtained before I kept records) so of course you have to add in the potential for hybridisation. The kavachensis was bought as a seedling from an AGS member; I don't know where their seed came from.

I have a plant obtained as P. ruprechtiana from Paul Christian back in December 2001. It has always clung to life rather than thrived with me (although it is planted in a rather crowded bed and I should have tried moving it years ago). Currently a solitary stem, the flower should open in a day or two.

[Leena]

All this about differences in P.daurica is very informing, thank you. I have one plant of P.kavachensis, which is going to flower this year for the first time, I'll post pictures so you can say what you think of it. All the pictures you have posted look really nice and desirable. 

Thomas's P.obovata looks the same as my P.obovata subs willmottiae, while Rimmer's plant looks different to me. These pictures are from last summer, it has just come up here. It's leaves are hairy underneath, but glabrous above, and they get reddish autumn color. The stamens are dark like in Thomas's picture.

[Matt]

I think the mascula was garden seed (but obtained before I kept records) so of course you have to add in the potential for hybridisation. The kavachensis was bought as a seedling from an AGS member; I don't know where their seed came from.

I have a plant obtained as P. ruprechtiana from Paul Christian back in December 2001. It has always clung to life rather than thrived with me (although it is planted in a rather crowded bed and I should have tried moving it years ago). Currently a solitary stem, the flower should open in a day or two.

We all have ruprechtiana from Rareplants...that is from Tibilisi BG...and no one knows whether it was wild collected or whether it is only a "garden selection" (sounds less bad than saying "hybrid" LOL)
This plant seems to be pretty only on Rareplants pic...my own plant bought around 2004 has literally traveled the entire garden as in any location I planted it was getting smaller rather than growing. I might have found now a decent spot: since 2010 is planted in deep shade facing NE at the base of a tall Laurus nobilis hedge in a raised bed filled with quite heavy soil (sticky when wet) mixed with leaf mould (and a good dose of Nitrophoska!). This year I finally had 3 flowering stems...but the flowers were not even worth taking a pic...the petals all ruffled and messy...and they lasted 48 hours.
Gail - I am surprised that even your plant is not doing well...are you on sandy soil? My first attempt was also on light soil...and I almost lost it. Leena in Finland you should try it...may be it needs a colder climate.

[Matt]

All this about differences in P.daurica is very informing, thank you. I have one plant of P.kavachensis, which is going to flower this year for the first time, I'll post pictures so you can say what you think of it. All the pictures you have posted look really nice and desirable. 

Thomas's P.obovata looks the same as my P.obovata subs willmottiae, while Rimmer's plant looks different to me. These pictures are from last summer, it has just come up here. It's leaves are hairy underneath, but glabrous above, and they get reddish autumn color. The stamens are dark like in Thomas's picture.

Yes Leena & Thomas plants are definitely P. obovata ssp. willottiae.
Rimmer's plant could be either "normal" P. obovata or P. japonica...I don't grow any of those...I can only comment on pics or plants seen at Kew. However Rimmer you got a great bargain! obovata/japonica are definitely more expensive and difficult to grow than kavachensis. Silly question...have you asked the nursery that sold it to you?

M.

[Rimmer de Vries]

Yes Leena & Thomas plants are definitely P. obovata ssp. willottiae.
Rimmer's plant could be either "normal" P. obovata or P. japonica...I dong grow any of those...I can only comment on pics or plants seen at Kew. However Rimmer you got a great bargain! obovata/japonica are definitely more expensive and difficult to grow than kavakensis. Silly question...have you asked the nursery that sold it to you?

M.

Hi Matt
I received this plant as a division from a friend, but i don't recall which friend gave me this one.  The friend who gave me many peonies has never seen this one so it is a mystery!
it has been planted in a sunny rather dry location for 5 years and bloomed once before but i missed it, the seed was red and black.

Paeonia tenuifolia is beginning to bloom, has anyone grown the pink form of the single or double thread leaf peony?

Rimmer

[Irm]

A Berlin Paeonia, the first in flower today   

[illingworth]

I believe that  the P. obovata we grow is closer to Rimmer's plant except the ovaries on our plant are green.   I think the original seed came from McLewen and I've grown many seedlings from it over the years with consistent results (all open pollinated).   A few years back I sent a few hundred seed to Kristl at Gardens North so it is out there.
Rob

[Thomas Seiler]

Great, now I know, that my Paeonia obovata is subsp. willmottiae, thanks to Matt and Leena!

[Irm]

P.mlokosewitchi is in flower now

[Thomas Seiler]

Good one, Irm.
Here Paeonia steveniana, now P. daurica subsp. macrophylla opened today. For me this is always the most mysterious peony, as it never opens the flowers wide and keeps its secret ... 

[Rimmer de Vries]

P caucasica triternata grown from second generation seed originally from the botanical garden in Hof, Germany given by Hermann, Fuchs

[astragalus]

Paeonia mlokosewitschii after our first rain of note.  Everything was like dust.

[Leena]

We all have ruprechtiana from Rareplants.... Leena in Finland you should try it...may be it needs a colder climate.

I have one P.ruprechtiana, two year old seedling which I planted outside last autumn. I got some seeds from a Finnish friend who was working in Scotland for a year few years ago and is a member of SRGC, and she had bought the seeds from one of the events (she told me about SRGC and this forum 
So this is all I know of it's origin. Here is a picture of it last year, it doesn't seem any bigger yet.