Paeonia 2013

[Leena]

Rimmer, Paeonia veitchii is considered by Hong just as a subspecies of P. anomala. The only difference is that P. anomal has solitary flowers, rarely 2, P. veitchii 2 - 4 flowers, rarely solitary. Your anoma has a solitary flower, but I can't decide that from the photograph of your veitchii.

I agree with Thomas, P anomala has only one flower per stem (very rarely two) and P.veitchii can have only one flower if the plant is young or growing in poor conditions, but mature plants have 2-4 flowers per stem (side buds), and even young plants have at least some side buds.
To me both plants look like P.anomala.
Also all P.anomala I have seen are tall plants (more than 60-70cm) while all P.veitchii I have seen are shorter, but books don't say anything about this so perhaps flowers per stem is a better identification. I have four P.veitchii's, all from different source, and all are short plants (40-50cm), but the flower color varies. In my own plants, also the nodding flower of P.veitchii is more flat open, while the flower of P.anomala looks different (I don't know how to explain it in English), I'll post pictures when they open.
To me the flowers in Rimmer's plants look like P.anomala.

[Irm]

I agree with Thomas, P anomala has only one flower per stem (very rarely two)

I think, you are right, here is my P.anomala 

[Leena]

Irm, a very nice peony  , which has quite large and open flowers. more showy than in many anomalas.

[greenspan]

one of my anomala stocks. i don't differentiate between ssp. anomala or ssp. veitchii. my plants are mostly seed grown without any information, where the seed comes from. probably from garden or botanical gardens. so a mix between both ssp. should be likely. but i have also one anomala from china, xinjiang. in this province only anomala ssp. anomala is native. it is a quite dwarf anomala, about 30 cm (you can see the leaves on the left side of the foto, only one flower this year). so leena, the size is not a suitable feature. i'm not shure but the stock on the foto could be a seedling of the dwarf anomala. it reaches about 60-70 cm.

[Hendrik Van Bogaert]

Shall we add to the puzzle P. caucasica and P. ruprechtiana? Together with P. kavachensis they seem now to be all inside the same name of P. daurica ssp. coorifolia. Only the knowledge of the exact provenance is the key to the problem.

Gail - with regard to your P. mascula clump - do you know the exact origin of the seeds you received from the Alpine Garden Society? Morphologically your plants seem similar to those from Calabria or Puglia (Gargano).

And what about your P. kavachensis from East Turkey? Is it from wild collected seed? Is definitely not P. daurica ssp. daurica (have a look at Thomas' plant...those are the "correct" leaves). To me it looks more similar to what was called P. caucasica that grows in the W Caucasus (Georgia rather than E Turkey)...or it is P. mascula ssp. mascula.

In the first & second pic it is P. caucasica at Berlin-Dahlem BG from a seed collection in Georgia by the Komarov Botanical Institute. The third pic is my plant of P. caucasica from Rareplants and P. kavachensis at Kew in the fourth pic (also from St Petersburg BG).

I do admit that P. ruprechtiana could be only a variation of P. caucasica ("selected" by Tibilisi BG) with emerging leaves of deep copper colour and darker flowers...

http://www.paeonia.ch/gmbh/ruprechtiana.html

...but P. kavachensis is slightly different esp. in the leaves...may be more similar to P. daurica ssp. daurica but bigger in all its parts.

HENDRIK...once you told us that you saw P. kavachensis it in the wild in deep shade...where was it? Have you got pics of it?

M.

Sorry for my very late reply Matt, but I'm just back for my annual trip to the mountains....
In April 2010 I was in Georgia and able to see the true P. "ruprechtiana" in the wild (growing in deep shade);
herewith a picture of it.
The people of the BG of Tbilisi allowed me to collect 3 seedlings; they survived all here; in cultivation the leaves remains the marvellous deep copper colour
and this year the plants flowered for the first time! A wonderful sight, but no pictures available.
New name for P."ruprechtiana" is now P. daurica ssp. coriifolia.
I have never saw P. kavachensis in the wild.
Hendrik

[Hendrik Van Bogaert]

During the same trip in Georgia we visited the "locus classicus" of P. steveniana in the region of Bakuriana;
unfortunately we were a few days to early to see the flowers.
This peony calls now P. daurica ssp. macrophylla.
I was again allowed to collect a few seedlings; those too survived, but the copper foliage is far more weaker in cultivation....
Herewith some pictures.
Hendrik

[Hendrik Van Bogaert]

And herewith the woodland  location where this paeony grows...

[Hendrik Van Bogaert]

During this trip we want to visit of course the location of P. mlokosowitchii in the Lagodechi Nature Reserve.
Due to the heavy rains and the very long walk (6 hours up and down) through the woods we didn’t succeed to reach the location.
But to give you an idea of the place herewith a marvellous picture of the great woods where this peony grows … look how small we were….
Hendrik

[Maggi Young]

But to give you an idea of the place herewith a marvellous picture of the great woods where this peony grows … look how small we were….
Hendrik

A majestic landscape indeed. 

[Leena]

i have also one anomala from china, xinjiang. in this province only anomala ssp. anomala is native. it is a quite dwarf anomala, about 30 cm (you can see the leaves on the left side of the foto, only one flower this year). so leena, the size is not a suitable feature.]

Thank you greenspan, my experience was only from the plants I had seen here, so it is very limited.

Hendrik, wonderful to see pictures of native habitats of peonies.

[Olga Bondareva]

...region of Bakuriana;
...
This peony calls now P. daurica ssp. macrophylla.

I understand systematics is changing. But it is a very strange when peony growing in Tauria names daurica and than the name spreads on the species growing in Georgia. Dauria is a place in thousands km from Krymea and Georgia. And the peonies do not grow there. 

[Olga Bondareva]

But to give you an idea of the place herewith a marvellous picture of the great woods where this peony grows … look how small we were….

Mysterious place, Hendrik! Thank you for the picture. What a pity the weather stopped you.

[Olga Bondareva]

Paeonia caucasica in the wild.





It is very common in north-west Caucasus.

[greenspan]

I understand systematics is changing. But it is a very strange when peony growing in Tauria names daurica and than the name spreads on the species growing in Georgia. Dauria is a place in thousands km from Krymea and Georgia. And the peonies do not grow there. 

the english botanist Henry Charles Andrews described this peony first in 1807 (Botanists Repositary 7, t. 486; 1807). don't know what material he had. maybe he got plants or herbar material which origin was mislabelled. i found this informations about "triternata", a synonym for daurica, author Wister (1961):
"P. daurica Andrews, 1807.

Synonyms: caucasica Schipczmsky, 1937; corallina Retzius sec. Bieberstein, 1808; corallina subsp. triternata (Pallas) Busch, 1901; corallina subsp. triternata var. corifolia (Ruprecht) Busch, 1901; corallina var. caucasica Schipczinsky, 1921; corallina var. pallasi Huth, 1891; corallina var. triternata (Pallas) Boissier, 1867; mascula var. triternata (Pallas) Gurke, 1903; triternata Pallas, 1795; and triternata t. coriifolia Ruprecht, 1869.

Crimea and Caucasus. Best known in gardens as "triternata" Pallas. Distinguished by ruffled rounded upturned leaves. Probably discovered by Pallas before 1790 and sent to Bell in London. This is the original name under which it has long been known in gardens. Only recently, apparently, has it been noted that it was a nomen nudum, that is, a name without a valid description. Under botanical rules, therefore, it has no standing. For that reason Stern has accepted the next oldest name daurica. Stebbins considered "triternata" the species of which mlokosewitschi was only a botanical variety, but Stern does not agree and places it in the mascula group. It was listed by Barr in 1885. Flowers rose or magenta to soft pink." (source).

[Olga Bondareva]

greenspan, I know, I understand. But result sounds very strange isn't it?