Paeonia 2013

[Irm]

Hi again,
can you post a picture of your "windflower"? Whar are their parents ?

Thanks
Bernd

Hi!
the parents of paeonia early windflower are P.veichii and P.emodi (Saunders 1939)
the parents of paeonia late windflower are P.beresowskii and P.emodi (Saunders 1939)

the parents of P.white innocence are P.lactiflora and emodi (Saunders 1947)

they are all beautifull (in my eyes) 

[Catwheazle]

Hello Irm,
yes, you're right ... with the parents and that they are very pretty. It annoys me just a little that not only the orchids, the habit has spread to provide the plants with the wrong name. Not to mention what I have sown, already have several years in culture and will probably only see in a few years the flowers. Pity that there is no threat to reputable sources (dealer) for seeds and plants here. I had missed earlier order from the Archibalds :-(
Bernd

[greenspan]

@Catwheazle

today i received some photos of the "emodi" in gaissmayer's nursery (habitus, leaves, carpels).

beforehand...my conclusion is clear. gaissmaier has the hybrid 'Windflower', wrong labelled as emodi.

why i exclude emodi + sterniana:

gaissmayer's "emodi":

1. produce 2 or 3 carpels! => emodi has normally 1, rarely 2 carpels:

     

2. the leaflets are deeply 2-3-lobed => emodi always entire

     

two significant features of emodi are wrong => exclusion of emodi

3. carpels with densely hispid hairs => carpels of sterniana are glabrous (see photo)! => exclusion of sterniana.

i checked my 'Windflower' (flowering ended):
1-3 carpels, densely hispid, lobed leaflets => the features of the parents emodi (hairy carpels) and anomala ssp. veitchii (lobed leaflets, number of carpels) mixed in one plant.

saunders noticed the parents for
'Late Windflower': berezowskii x emodi ... berezowskii is a synonym to anomala ssp. veitchii (Hong: revision of the anomala complex)
'Early Windflower': veitchii x emodi ...veitchii is a synonym to anomala ssp. veitchii (Hong: revision of the anomala complex)

maybe you have the 'Late Windflower' because of my 'Windflower' ended with flowering since a few days.

the 'Windflower' is called to be steril. i would also say so, but as i wrote some postings before, my 'Windflower' set 2 seedcorms, one germinated. but this happened only for one time within 6 years!

[greenspan]

Hi again,
can you post a picture of your "windflower"? Whar are their parents ?

i did ...fotos on this page, posting # 152

[Catwheazle]

Hi Greenspan,
Thank you for your efforts.
Although I find it sad that you're probably right, I find the whole thing very interesting. My plant has 2 carpels at both flowers. Let's see how that develops. I think, as you suspect :-( I will report!

Greetings
Bernd

[Hoy]

Two species from my garden today - a bit later than most years.
P rockii cv from seed and mlokosewitschii.

[Catwheazle]

@ Hoy .... great pictures! 

by the way....
Unfortunately, since my mlokosewitschii seems to be self-sterile, I bought seeds over the Internet.
As the seedlings look, it seems to be a hybrid 

What do you think? Could there be mascula it? Or is it possible that the mloko so round leaves can have?

Greetings
Bernd

[greenspan]

@Catwheazle

it's a daurica seedling. to classify daurica, grown in garden or seedlings of unknown origin in subspecies (e.g. ssp. mlokosewitchii, ssp. wittmanniana etc.) makes no sense in my opinion. if it will flower yellow in a few years, then be happy that this fits the plant of which most people have the imagination of a "real" mlokosewitschii. as Hong proved, the "mloko" can show different colours.

Hong "Paeonia (Paeoniaceae) in the Caucasus" (pdf-file): Petal colour: All the previous taxonomists except for Albow (1895) divided this complex into two major groups using this character: yellow or red (or white)...[...]... Furthermore, in H99035 (Lagodekhi, type locality of both P. mlokosewitschii (yellow flowers) and P. lagodechiana (pink flowers)), we found all the colours mentioned above: white, pale yellow, yellow, pink, red and purple-red, or yellow but with red or pink periphery or a red spot at the base (Figs 5–9),

[Catwheazle]

Hi greenspan,
yes I know. :-( I had sown the seeds so just so I have a breeding partner for my mloko. Unfortunately, the only sets of empty seeds.
Is this normal, or maybe lags on dusting? I still have some other seeds of Halda .... I hope that there vote in the name.

Bernd

My God, scheme for the peonies is ..... 

[Hoy]

@ Hoy .... great pictures! 

by the way....
Unfortunately, since my mlokosewitschii seems to be self-sterile, I bought seeds over the Internet.
As the seedlings look, it seems to be a hybrid 

What do you think? Could there be mascula it? Or is it possible that the mloko so round leaves can have?

Greetings
Bernd

Danke Bernd. Seems you have got an answer to your question - that's good as I am no expert

Here are a few pictures from today: Paeonia obovata (I think, please tell if you don't agree). The flowers have a pink edge when they open, especially in shade, but soon become white.

[Hoy]

The tree peony P. lutea ludlowii is rather treelike - 3.5m and the rockii cv still has about 30 buds awaiting!

[Leena]

Hoy, I think your white peony is P.obovata subsp willmottiae. The leaves and stamens look like in my plant, and I think there has sometimes been a very slight red in the edge of the flowers when they open, but not as much as in your plant, and not every year.
Does your plant set good seeds (I ask because mine doesn't and it would be interesting to know if there is a P.obovata subsp willmottiae which does and in what conditions)?

[Catwheazle]

@ Hoy beautiful plant. Your obovata :-)

and the ludlowii.... witout words. such a great plant ? How old is it ?
Please post pictures, when the flowers are open.

[Matt]

Here are a few pictures from today: Paeonia obovata (I think, please tell if you don't agree). The flowers have a pink edge when they open, especially in shade, but soon become white.
[/quote]

more disgustingly beautiful plants from the north...my compliments!

m.

[greenspan]

Hoy, I think your white peony is P.obovata subsp willmottiae. The leaves and stamens look like in my plant, and I think there has sometimes been a very slight red in the edge of the flowers when they open, but not as much as in your plant, and not every year.
Does your plant set good seeds (I ask because mine doesn't and it would be interesting to know if there is a P.obovata subsp willmottiae which does and in what conditions)?

the petal color, filament color, the whole "look like" isn't a criteria to classify obovata to one of the two subspecies levels ssp. obovata or ssp. willmottiae. in my opinion, the subspecies classification can only be done by botanists who work with scientific methods to determine the ploidy level of a plant (e.g. diploid, tetraploid) + have the information about the origin of a plant. hong found out, that the different morphological characters (e.g. flower shape + color, petals orientation, filaments etc.) can appear even within the same population. as i understand Hongs work "Cytogeography and taxonomy of the Paeonia obovata polyploid complex (2001)" the reason to classify 2 subspecies is the ploidy-level, the leaf indumentum and the correlation to the geographical distribution of obovata.

"an extensive chromosome survey and the analysis of morphological characters show that the ploidy level is basically correlated with the geographical distribution and with the indumentum on the lower leaf surface. Thus, the recognition of one species with two subspecies is proposed: Paeonia obovata subsp. obovata, mostly diploid, widely distributed in the north, east and south of the distribution range and glabrous to sparsely pubescent or hirsute on the lower leaf surface, and subsp. willmottiae, tetraploid, limited to the west and with leaves densely hirsute or pubescent below."

Hong itself wrote, that because of leaf indumentum on the lower surface was an extremely variable character, he used a more or less arbitrary system of six grades to measure the density of leaf indumentum with 0 indicating entirely glabrous, 1 very sparsely hirsute or pubescent with some hairs only along major veins, while 5 the most densely hirsute or pubescent (nearly entirely covered with hairs), and 2, 3 and 4 indicating intermediate states.

what is the grade of leaf indumentum of one of my obovata according to Hong's system? ...i have no idea except it isn't 0 and 1 

also no idea about the ploidy level or any informations about the origin. and now?

so for me it's enough to know "obovata" with some supplementary notes about flower shapes (e.g. "japonica-type", round or acute petal apex, color etc.)

here some fotos of my obovata, import plants from china (foto 2, 3, 4) + seed grown of unknown origin (foto 1; so called "japonica"-type) with different flower shapes: