Flowers and Foliage now - December 07

[Tim Murphy]

Hello Joakim, I have attached some photos of Helleborus foetidus so that you can make sense of my explanation. There are several way to tell H. argutifolius and H. foetidus from one another. Looking at the leaves of argutifolius, you can see that they are trifoliate, Look at the leaves of foetidus and you can see that there are always more than three leaflets. The central leaflet is always undivided and the lateral ones are very often subdivided. The toothing around the margin of the leaves is very much more pronounced on the foliage of argutifolius than it is on the margins of foetidus foliage. Argutifolius leaflets are wider than foetidus leaflets. The leaflets of argutifolius have a hard, dry, tough feel to them, whereas the leaflets of foetidus are a little more delicate.

The flowers are different too; argutifolius flowers open up more than foetidus flowers, although the latter will open its flowers if they have been pollinated, to accommodate the growing seed pods. Whilst the flowers of foetidus are still carrying stamens though, the sepals will not reflex as much as those on argutifolius flowers.

[Joakim B]

Tim Thanks a lot for the very informative answer
Now I know better how to tell them apart.
It is always a great pleasure to be taught by knowledgeable people .
I bet more people will be happy to have this guide to separate the two.

Kind regards
Joakim

[Paddy Tobin]

Thank you, Tim.

As you say, it is definitely not H. foetidus which grows elsewhere in the garden. I find it, H. argutifolius, an excellent plant and have a good patch of them elsewhere in the garden where I wanted to fill space quickly and cheaply and so grew a few on from seed of the one photographed in my earlier posting.

Well spotted, Mick. The underside of the leaves are quite a bit lighter than the glossy green uppers. The fruit is quite perfumed and I am not sure that it is entirely to my liking - the smell, that is.

Paddy

[Lesley Cox]

Ripe feijoas are as green as the unripe, just softer to touch. I like them raw when fully ripe but they are very good peeled, stewed with brown sugar and eaten with thick cream. They make a very good jam too.

[zephirine]

I was about to ask the same question as Joakim, but more in terms of :
"How do you differentiate argutifolius form nigercors?" (niger x argutifolius I believe).
I'd be very interested too!
I have a plant which was sold to me as nigercors, and looks very much like Paddy's.
It usually blooms later (March), but this year is so special, and I've noticed buds on this plant, already.
TIA
Zeph

[Tim Murphy]

Hi Zeph, the problem with these hybrids is that they hugely variable across the range. A good plant of x nigercors, or any of the other interspecific hybrids will be intermediate between the parent species. Many offspring though often lean more towards one parent than the other. A very good example of this is H. x sternii. There are some superb examples of this hybrid available, which typically have silver/blue/grey foliage (lividus genes) and are not as tall and sprawling as straight argutifolius (again, lividus genes), but that are hardy in the garden and are extremely floriferous (argutifolius genes). In its worst forms though, x sternii can look just like normal argutifolius.

The plant in your first photo is definitely x nigercors, Zeph. The flowers are the first giveaway. I can see that they are larger than the flowers of argutifolius and they open up more as the flowers of H. niger would do.

The foliage is variable; like I said in my previous post, the foliage of argutifolius is trifoliate. Unfortunately, the foliage of x nigercors can be trifoliate too; I would steer clear of a plant like this because if I want a plant of this hybrid, I want it to be intermediate between the two parent species. If I wanted a plant that looked like argutifolius, I'd buy argutifolius. In a good plant (just my opinion), the foliage will be intermediate between niger and argutifolius; there would be more than three leaflets and there would still be strong toothing around the leaf margin. Some of this is very difficult to explain through a typed post; the leaves would also have that "niger look" about them; you really need to look at the two plants (niger and argutifolius) side by side to understand what I mean.  I wish I had some decent photos to post to illustrate the point!

H. x nigercors is a worthwhile hybrid; the flowers are niger-like without all of the cultivation problems that seem to afflict so many of those who try to grow niger outside. I'll finish with a piece of advice that applies to nearly all hellebores (not to species plants grown from wild seed), to be sure of knowing that you are getting what the label says you are getting, buy in flower. H. x nigercors should have large, almost white, open flowers. If the flowers look more like those on Paddy's plant, walk away. The problem is that a lot of nurseries (especially those who sell to the garden centres) don't rogue out the poor forms of these hybrids. Around here I see a lot of x sternii for sale which look just like straight argutifolius, except with a very light silver sheen across the leaves. It's a pity.

Apologies for the rambling post; it's still early here :-) Maybe I'll make more sense later on...

[Joakim B]

Tim Yet another very informative post.
I was able to see the slightly more open flowers on Zephs plant and it was interesting to hear about the hybrids not being a good mix of the genes but almost a copy of one parent.
Now I know I need to be aware of that if bying a hybrid.

Kind regards
Joakim

[Rob]

Tim thanks for those two posts, they're very informative for a newbie.

The only H argutifolius I've seen had dark foliage and a lot of contrast to the flowers, so I guessed H foetidus for Paddys plant

Now that you have pointed out the difference between the leaves it is easy to tell them apart.

[rob krejzl]

I think Tim is a newbie only in his exposure here on the SRGC. I've been (silently) reading and learning from him (about hellebores and cyclamen) on another site for a while.

[Rob]

Whoops. I meant I'm the newbie who doesn't know much about hellebores.

My poor english made it ambiguous

[Diane Whitehead]

I have five Helleborus niger plants that have been in the garden for
about 20 years.  I chose about seven from a lot of them in
flower at my local garden centre.  I selected the most distinctive ones
on offer - the pointiest petals, roundest flower, pinkest, purest white,
and so on.  Two died, but the rest are fine.

This is the one that is always in flower for Christmas.  I took the
picture to show the foliage, which is dark green and wide.

[Tim Murphy]

Don't worry Rob & Rob K, I know what you both meant :-)

There's a bit of a lull at the moment in the glasshouses and garden before the winter/spring flowering plants start. In flower and looking good in leaf at the moment are the following:

1. Cyclamen colchicum (past its best now).
2. Cyclamen elegans silver leaf form.
3. More of the above.
4. Cyclamen parviflorum in leaf.
5. True wild species Helleborus orientalis.
6. Helleborus vesicarius; this plant will be flowering after Christmas.

[rob krejzl]

My bad. Shouldn't post when insomnia strikes.

[Tim Murphy]

My bad. Shouldn't post when insomnia strikes.

Rob, I spend a lot of time on websites when that happens :-) So you've been lurking over on the GB site then?

[rob krejzl]

Yes. I've been thinking about trying H. vesicarius (I'm on sand which dries out fairly well each summer) and decided on some research before doing so.