Allium 2014

[ashley]

I think you're right Matt, given the dark bulbils, and also it's more likely in Sweden.

[Matt T]

Checking Rose, The Wildflower Key, A. ampeloprasum (including v. babingtonii) has flowers on short stems with the style protruding and stamens just slightly. A. scorodoprasum has flowers on long stems and stamens (and style) enclosed within the flower.

[johnw]

In flower today:

Allium species - cw Gang-ho-ba, Lijang, China3450m to 70cm, in screes - id'ed by Afloden as prattii, identified by Mark McDonough as Allium ovalifolium var. leuconeurum.

ACE94-2394

johnw

[TheOnionMan]

Very nice John, it's a lovely Allium, such nice foliage, and late blooming to boot.

[rgc]

A. sikkimense or beesiana: help please
I bought this plant at a SRGC plant stall last year as Allium beesiana and posted a picture of it under that name on 9th August on the 'August 2014 in the Northern hemisphere' thread. Since then, I have done some reading on the Internet and gather that there is a lot of misnaming of small blue alliums.

The main alternatives seeems to be A. cyaneum and A. sikkimense. Ruled out A. cyaneum as the stamens are too short. Have read that in A. beesianum the tepals are 11-14 mm while in A. sikkimense they are 6-10 mm. (I am such a novice that tepal was a new word to me!) My plant has tepals that are 10mm long. Is the division between the two species so precise that 10mm means A.sikkimense and 11 mm means A. beesianum? The height of the flowering stems varies between 23 and 33 cms.
The attached pictures were taken today.
Bob

[Wim de Goede]

Here are two of my alliums that are flowering at the moment.

A. cernuum and
A. Eros -does anyone know its parentage, it looks like A. unifolium to me but I expect I am wrong.

Dear Jackie , we got Allium Eros in 2000 from Wayne Roderick sinds then we raised it and got growing rights for the Netherlands.
Wayne did not tell me where it came from but I think Mark is right with the selection of A .unifolium, the difference between them is , A. unifolium is pale pink and the flower petals are round, A. Eros is deep pink and the petals are pointed ,
It is a very good garden plant and available in big quantity .
Wim

[Matt T]

A. sikkimense or beesiana: help please
I bought this plant at a SRGC plant stall last year as Allium beesiana and posted a picture of it under that name on 9th August on the 'August 2014 in the Northern hemisphere' thread. Since then, I have done some reading on the Internet and gather that there is a lot of misnaming of small blue alliums.

The main alternatives seeems to be A. cyaneum and A. sikkimense. Ruled out A. cyaneum as the stamens are too short. Have read that in A. beesianum the tepals are 11-14 mm while in A. sikkimense they are 6-10 mm. (I am such a novice that tepal was a new word to me!) My plant has tepals that are 10mm long. Is the division between the two species so precise that 10mm means A.sikkimense and 11 mm means A. beesianum? The height of the flowering stems varies between 23 and 33 cms.
The attached pictures were taken today.
Bob

Hi Bob,
The subject of ID'ing blue Allium came up in the Bulb Log recently, and I found a lot of advice in the 2010 and 2011 threads: http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=6685.msg208737#msg208737 Although, most discussion relates to determining the true A. cyaneum, which you've already ruled out, rather than distinguishing A. beesianum from A. sikkimense.

Maybe this key will help you: http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=101086#KEY-1-63

A. beesianum: "Perianth segments narrowly oblong to narrowly ovate-oblong, 11-14(-17) mm, margin entire; filaments usually ca. 4/5 as long as perianth segments; style usually 2-3 × as long as ovary."

A. sikkimense: "Perianth segments obtuse at apex, inner ones longer and wider than outer, only inner ones irregularly denticulate at margin; leaves flat."

[rgc]

A. beesianum or A. sikkimense
Thanks Matt for your response. I had looked at the recent Bulb Log and earlier threads on the forum which is why A. cyaneum was ruled out. Looked again at your Flora of China link and tried harder this time to try and understand it. (I am a retired scientist, but not a botanist.)

Looked again at the plant: the tepals are not obtuse at apex and are not denticulate. That supports A. beesianum. However they are only 10mm long! So my temporary conclusion is that the 10mm - 11mm distinction is over precise.

Another thought is that, as both A. beesianum and A. sikkimense have been grown in gardens for some time, has that possibly resulted in hybrids between the two?

Are you going to Dunblane on Saturday?
Thanks again
Bob

[Matt T]

Size (and colour) as a characteristic in plants may vary with environmental conditions, even outwith the 'typical' range. Whilst features such as denticulate vs. entire margins, the shape of structures etc do not tend to vary as much and can be more reliable characteristics. The first pic in this post shows the denticulate margin of A. sikkimense nicely: http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=5766.msg160086#msg160086 Non-obtuse tepals with entire margins would suggest A. beesianum.

At 63 + in the key, it states: "Perianth segments ovate or ovate-oblong, 6--10 mm, at least margin of inner ones irregularly denticulate; filaments usually 1/2--2/3 as long as perianth segments; style shorter than or subequaling ovary." Is the style of your plant longer (A. beesianum) or shorter (A. sikkimense) than the ovary? This might help sway you either way.

Having now looked at a lot of pictures of small blue alliums on various Forum pages, the overall impression of the plant in your pics is more suggestive of A.sikkimense to me. Sometimes you get fixed on a particular detail, but then step back and take a fresh look at the whole plant. Obviously, I don't have the real thing in front of me...and as you say, a hybrid could confuse the picture.

Ain't plants great? ID conundrums like this are a great opportunity to learn more about plants you haven't really looked at all that closely before! 

I had planned on coming to Dunblane, but the spiralling cost of public transport means I won't make it now, which is a great shame as I would have loved to hear Olga's talks. However, I will be at the Late Bulb and Discussion Weekend

Cheers,
M

[Growild]

Here is my A.sikkimense ... but if it's the real thing is another matter?

[Matt T]

Here is my A.sikkimense ... but if it's the real thing is another matter?

I am not an Allium expert, but this looks like it could be A. yuanum - based on the acuminate tips to the tepals (those in A.sikkimense are obtuse/blunt) and the fact that the outer and inner tepals are equal in length and denticulate...

http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=101086#KEY-1-64

A very pretty plant. 

I'm adding all these small blues to my SeedEx order this year...but who knows what they'll turn out to be 

[Growild]

Hi Matt

Yes, it's a very pretty looking plant with very narrow foliage - came to me from Edrom. Hope to get seeds this year if the today's strong winds haven't destroyed it. This is their Allium SSSE250 ... I forgot to dig this one up when we moved 

[Matt T]

This is their Allium SSSE250 ... I forgot to dig this one up when we moved 

Hard to see for sure from the photo, but appears to have blunt tepals with the inner ones only denticulate and the stigma looks to be shorter than the ovary ... this could be the real A. sikkimense?? Apparently it is a variable species with several forms in cultivation.

[Maggi Young]

I do love these blue allium.

 This may be of interest : members of the SSSE  ( standing for Sino Scottish Swedish expediton  I think!)were  Ron Mcbeath  Jens Nielson,  Lars Danialson from Sweden and  Ian Christie.   

[Matt T]

Could SSSE be Sino-Scottish Szechuan expedition?