Avon Resting Bulb List

[Alan_b]

... what on earth pterugiform means...

Whilst I agree that the coinage 'inverse poculiform' needs to be replaced, there is also a lot to be said for a name that trips off the tongue a bit more easily than pterugiform.

[Matt Bishop]

Well you cannot please everyone. That's for sure.

[emma T]

I think unless you can come up with a more catchy word , we are all going to continue using inverse poc .

[Matt Bishop]

Much as I like the term pterugiform as a descriptor for this kind of floral morphology (I was unaware of it prior to publishing inverse poculiform) I think it would cause more problems than it solves to try and switch now when we have a perfectly well-established term. In any case not all inverse pocs are pterugiform; some reflex or recurve their outer segments and yet show inner segment markings on their outer segments. I'm sure if any self-respecting Roman warrior ventured into an arena with such a garment, eye brows would have been raised!

[Maggi Young]

I'm sure if any self-respecting Roman warrior ventured into an arena with such a garment, eye brows would have been raised!

  That would have given  folks a good laugh anyway - looking like a roman lampshade!

[Alan_b]

We use the term 'poculiform', which I'm given to understand means shaped like a goblet or drinking-bowl (although I'll have to take the word of Latin scholars on this) to describe a snowdrop with inner petals that have some of the character of the normal outer petals.  I have always found it a bit of a stretch of my imagination to see such snowdrops as goblet-shaped.

So 'inverse poculiform' literally means inverse goblet-shaped - my imagination simply is not up to what an inverse goblet might look like.    But we don't mean that 'inverse poculiform' snowdrops look like an inverse goblet, we mean that they are the opposite of poculiform and that the outer petals have something of the character of normal inner petals.  In my opinion, and it's just my opinion, the literal meaning of the term 'inverse poculiform' is too far away from what is actually meant.

Picture of a poculum http://www.roma-victrix.com/armamentarium/img/inscriptiones_poculum01.jpg       

[emma T]

Inners look like outers  = illo's ,  outers look like inners olli's.   That would do it lol

[Maggi Young]

Inners look like outers  = illo's ,  outers look like inners olli's.   That would do it lol

A promising theory - 'til we consider the dyslexics amongst us......... 

[annew]

Inners look like outers  = illo's ,  outers look like inners olli's.   That would do it lol

Oh, Emma, I like that! I'm going to tell my Ollis at once!

[Alan_b]

I like that too, Emma; very much.  Unfortunately it is not sanctified by being in a language understood by only the few so I suspect it will not be allowed to catch-on.

[emma T]

Well I think I like it so I'm going to call them that lol

[Matt Bishop]

I agree, in the absence of any friends who are Latin scholars, that the term poculiform has always been something of a puzzle when applied to a snowdrop flower with six more or less equal outer segments, which at best could only be a very leaky cup! One well-known galanthophile suggested to me recently that the 'cup' might refer to the apex of each of the segments when upturned but it seems somewhat tenuous.

But following Alan's assertion that inverse meant inside out, I found myself reaching for my dictionary and there is was: inverse - meaning no.2: 'a thing that is the opposite or reverse of another'. So I hear my self say 'what is an inverse poculiform'? Answer: well logical for starters.

[Alan_b]

Matt, I don't at all dispute the logic of getting from poculiform to inverse poculiform; I just think poculiform heads off in the wrong direction and unless you know where poculiform is you will be totally lost by the time you get to inverse poculiform.  Even a Latin scholar who understood what a poculum was would surely never ever be able to identify an inverse poculiform snowdrop from first principles.  "Here are some snowdrops: which one resembles the inverse of a the shape of a Roman drinking cup?" strikes me as an impossible question to answer.   

[Maggi Young]

Interesting as these discussions on the usage of pocs/ inverse pocs are - they bear no relation to the subject of the Avon Bulbs list, for which I apologise!

It seems to me that there are many botanical terms, as indeed there are in the technical jargon of many other things- computers, for instance - that do not bear close scrutiny as to their full  or original meanings.

In this case, I believe that poculiform is derived from an early use of 'poculiformis' from a time when latinised names for cultivars and types was permitted. Thus the term has a history and as such is  well known in usage.  We may not know, or indeed care, whence came the original word, all we need to know is that a poculiform snowdrop has all its parts like outer petals , while the inverse poc has all its parts like inner petals. 
It really is as simple as that.  I don't believe it is beyond the wit of most plantlovers to grasp that difference. I've managed to do so. 
I may believe that the name Delores is singularly inappropriate for the girl I see before me - I might consider that she would be better named Hermione - but her name is Delores and that is that, really. It is not for me to question the wisdom of her parents  who named her or consider urging her to change her name!

There are many other latin terms in botany that can be  tricky  either to pronounce or know the meaning of, but happily we have easier English words for most of them - that is not the case for  all of them. Poculiform  and inverse poculiform come into that category where the "translation" or etymology is not straightforward and any English replacement would, perforce, be longwinded at best.

'Drop Fiends- learn 'em and get over it! 

[Alan_b]

I disagree completely Maggi.  AFAIK the term poculiform is applied to no other flower than that of the snowdrop to mean the same thing (though a flower like a buttercup might more accurately be described as poculiform - if you had a mind to do so).  Poculiform applied to snowdrops is just a piece of jargon, albeit long-standing.  Jargon can be used to prevent the initiated from understanding and so is best avoided where possible.  Why use terminology that is only understood by 'drop-fiends'?

The names of plant species are continuously being changed or re-classified.  If we accept this then we should accept that we can also abandon obscure descriptive terminology if we can find something more appropriate.  If Dolores herself does not like her own name she can change it and if the snowdrop community decided to move on from using the terms poculiform and inverse poculiform they can do so.