Advice for a Galantho-newby

[apothecary]

Hello Galanthophiles,

This is my first post on your forum although I've been browsing your font of knowledge for some time.

I'm a horticulturist in Wales specialising in medicinal plants and until last spring had never really looked at a snowdrop before.  I was then allocated the job of confirming the identities of all the snowdrops in our collection and suddenly a new world opened up for me (and a fascinating one it is too).

This spring is my first full season of watching the collection develop and working through the monographs. Consequently, I have a few queries if I may pass them by your expert eyes now and again?

My first query relates to the best time for measuring leaves.  I had assumed that most parts of the identification process would be carried out whilst the specimen was in full flower.  I have now double-checked this in The Book (Bishop, Davis, Grimshaw) and find there isn't really anywhere which tells me when they measured leaf length and width for their monographs.  They merely point out that full leaf length usually occurs after flowering, but many monographs are phrased in a way which suggests measurment was still done at peak flowering time.

The reason I am suddenly questioning this is that I have a potted up specimen of G. 'Hippolyta' which matches the monograph in most respects but which currently has leaves up to only 4.5 x 1.0 cm and totally erect. The monograph gives measurements of 6.2 x 0.9cm and says leaves should be widely splayed.  I'm aware the pot could potentially have this effect and that such measurements are variable anyway, but there are a couple of other extraneous features on the plant which also make me doubt it's identity since I don't know how precise I need to be.  Other inconsistencies include an average of 12 inner segments (max 15) where there should be about 21; outer segment ratio of 5:3 instead of 1:1; scape length max 8.5cm rather than 16cm.  Could this still be 'Hippolyta'?

I should be able to obtain another specimen in the woods where they were originally planted, but it's not as advanced as the potted one and since most of Wales is currently submerged, I haven't ventured out with pen and paper to study it yet.  I imagine this specimen would be a more accurate one to study, but in the mean time, I wondered if you could offer advice.

At some point I may be able to obtain a digicam to photograph these plants.

Very grateful for any advice offered to this newly initiated Galanthophile,

Kristina

[Brian Ellis]

Welcome to the forum Kristina.  Had you thought of contacting John Grimshaw through the Colesbourne Park site to see when their measurements were taken?

http://www.snowdrop.org.uk/

I would have thought that flowering time is the optimum for measuring the leaf as you then know you've got the right plant.

[Maggi Young]

Hello, Kristina , a warm welcome to you!
As you have seen,  this place is full of dedicated snowdrop growers so I am sure you will be able to pick up lots of help.
This point about leaf measuring is a most interesting one.... yes, when the leaf is fully grown is the sensible time to do it, but how to tell when that is? As you say, it seems that flowering is the time when others have made their measurements, very confusing!
As an amateur, I have always found keys to species somewhat ambiguous, to say the least.... when one reads that species A has leaves 12 to 17 mm wide and species B has leaves 13 to 16mm wide, it isn't really a lot of help, is it?!!

Anyway, whole subject is full of intrique and I wish you well in your researches. Fascinating to learn  of your interest in medicinal plants, too.. Perhaps we'll hear more of that in future from you?
Best wishes,
 Maggi

[Alan_b]

I am relatively new to snowdrops also and I remain sceptical that it is possible to identify the majority of named snowdrops purely on the basis of the description given by Bishop et al. 

For one thing, the size and habit of a snowdrop must surely vary according to location.  For example, I obtained some G. elwesii Anglesey Abbey directly from Anglesey Abbey but they do not grow nearly as large in my garden as they do in-situ.  Also, markings may vary slightly from different bulbs of the same clone and on the same bulb from one year to the next.  I also think that an expert like Matt Bishop sees a whole range of details that are not documented and some of which he may not even be consciously aware of.

So my opinion is that for many snowdrops identification is only possible by either keeping track of your original acquisitions or consulting an expert galanthophile.  Maybe you could find an expert on this forum who would be willing to visit and help you out?

Edit:  I don't mean that I think it is impossible for you to identify your own snowdrops; just that in many cases you will only be able to achieve a provisional identification that will need to be confirmed by an expert.



       

[Brian Ellis]

I was then allocated the job of confirming the identities of all the snowdrops in our collection

Does this mean that they have been allowed to grow without weeding out of rogue seedlings?  Presumably you have a list of acquisitions and where they were originally planted?  Otherwise it seems like a bit of a haul to sort them out. 

[apothecary]

Had you thought of contacting John Grimshaw through the Colesbourne Park site to see when their measurements were taken?

Um, no I didn't know I could.  Sounds like a good idea.  I'll get on to that directly, thanks.

[apothecary]

Ok, to reply properly now that I have a moment or few spare.

Thanks for all the advice.  I'm glad I'm not the only one to find myself occasionally dumbfounded by these monographs.  It's nice to know things don't have to fit quite perfectly.  It gives me heart that I might complete the project.

Does this mean that they have been allowed to grow without weeding out of rogue seedlings? 

Well, I suppose that's a pretty good estimation of what's happened here really.  We're not a totally amateur outfit, but huge staff shortages and unreliable funding has resulted in a few areas being overlooked for quite some time.  It's all being gradually pulled together now though and I'll certainly endeavour to remove what rogues I find as I go now that I know I'm supposed to.

Maybe you could find an expert on this forum who would be willing to visit and help you out?       

So, speaking of experts, there are so many on this forum that I wondered what you would make of this pic (assuming I successfully attach it).  It's taken indoors so a bit overexposed, but you get the idea.





As for medicinal info.  I could talk about that all day.  Even the humble snowdrop has it's unique medicinal uses so I don't know why I didn't begin to appreciate them sooner.  The G. elwesii are just starting to come up in my 'pharmacy' bed for the 1st time after I secretly nabbed a few for it last year.

[apothecary]

Attempt no. 2:  Apparently G. 'Hippolyta'

click the pic to enlarge

Kristina, I have edited to lovely photo to a smaller size for easy viewing. I have made it 650 x 530 pixels.Also I added attchthumb=1 (typed inside square brackets [] ) to enable the photo to be seen in the text of your message. Cheers,
 Maggi

[Paddy Tobin]

Hi Kristina,

Welcome to the forum for those who wish to torture themselves with the minutiae of snowdrops. Good fun but frustrating at times.

On another subject, as you said you are involved in caring for medicinal herbs, do you grow American ginsing? I have some small plants from last year's seed and wondered if anyone else was growing it and how it does for them.

Paddy

[apothecary]

Panax quinquefolius?

I sowed a small quantity of seed last year, had about 5 germinate and then they went into stasis and refused to get any bigger.  Each produced only 1 or 2 true leaves before they went into the care of our nursery person.  Last I checked, they were looking decidedly poorly so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that they're just dormant now and not completely dead.

How about you?  I have to admit, they haven't been the greatest priority of mine so I didn't cater to their every whim as they maybe would have liked me to do.

I believe that any plant which fails to thrive in the comfort of the nursery without special effort just hasn't got a chance out in the Apothecaries' Garden which is on a 45 degree slope and gets blasted by a strong prevailing wind (and at the moment a whole deluge of water from all directions too).  Consequently, nothing gets mollycoddled by me unless it's very very special indeed.

[apothecary]

So what's the consensus?  Here are some pics of my potted up 'Hippolyta'.  Is it still true to itself?  For all of you out there who truly care for your Galanthus, you may find the following dissection image disturbing (sorry ).

[Maggi Young]

For all of you out there who truly care for your Galanthus, you may find the following dissection image disturbing (sorry ).

Oh my goodness, look at that...nice girl comes to the Forum, introduces herself politely and then turns out to be the horticultural equivalent of an axe murderer!    

Well laid out dissection pix, Kristina.... I can make no pretence to expertise in the world of 'drop... all I can say is that this looks very much like the plant I am growing as Hippolyta.... mind you, it's not out yet this year but I am pretty confident mine is the same... got a reasonable number of stamens showing, for instance. So, now we can both wait to be shot down in flames by the real galanthophiles!

[loes]

ooh! you are brave.looks good though.
mine is not out yet but looks a lot like it.but then again I am not an expert.

[Gerard Oud]

Looks more like Ophelia to me

[mark smyth]

Kristina you are dipping your toes in to the mixed up world of the Greatorex snowdrops. Who has the right plants is hard to know and it's like asking who has the right time on the street.

Your photo is perfect we would also need to see the flower photographed from a higher elevation. This is what I have in my files as 'Hippolyta'