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Author Topic: allium 2015  (Read 19635 times)

TheOnionMan

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Re: allium 2015
« Reply #60 on: August 06, 2015, 10:53:30 PM »
I was wondering if someone could help me identify this allium. I purchased it as A. stracheyi but I don't think it is. I know if you look at various sites selling it they have a plant that looks like mine. But I have a copy of the book Allium and Milula in the central and eastern Himalaya by William T Stearm and it describes A. stracheyi as follows ' Tepals purple, pink or reddish with a deeper red mid nerve: Leaves not more than 3mm broad' so it can't be that! It looks a bit like A. obliquum but isn't. It has a different leaf shape, narrower and fatter and only sheaths the lower 8th. It flowers later than A. oliquum and the tepals are more open. I did consider A.hookeri car muliense but again the leaf isn't right. Anybody got any other ideas?

Hi Jackie,

Here's a couple good links showing what Allium stracheyi looks like:

ENVIS Centre on Wildlife & Protected Areas, India (Threatened/ Medicinal plants)
Allium stracheyi
http://wiienvis.nic.in/WriteReadData/Photogallery/Allium%20stracheyi_%20Vulnerable_IUCN_Pic_Amit%20Kumar.JPG

Allium stracheyi page, good photos
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/allium$20stracheyi/indiantreepix/XPIe423URWw/-yqAq7fwbrwJ
Note: if the link just brings you to "Google Groups" use the search option and search Allium stracheyi, it should come right up.

I grew Allium stracheyi many years ago, it was a pale yellow form with pinkish flush and nerves.  I grew it back in the 1980s when I lived in mild Seattle Washington climate, it flowered very late, in November. When I moved back across country to New England USA, it could only flower (in December) if I brought it inside.  While hardy here, it was always too late to bloom successfully once we started getting freezing weather.

While normally rosy color, it is reported that the Kashmir specimens have very pale yellow flowers.  At one point a bright yellow Allium named A. consanguineum was put in synonymy with stracheyi, but that lumping didn't stick, and both species are accepted now.

Your plant does have an obliquum look to it. That species has a very broad distribution and can be quite variable, the perianth is described as varying from broadly cup-shaped (as in your plant), to globose.

I looked at many A. obliquum accessions on the most excelent Taxonomic Allium Research Collection at Gatersleben Germany, you can use the following link with 27 accessions of obliquum, about half of which have photos, click the little paper icon on the left, then use the left/right arrow to move through the records.  Some accessions show open flowers, some globose florets, leaf sheathing the stem can be anywhere from about 1/5th the stem to almost half, most seem on the lower percentage, and flowers quite yellow in some, chartreuse to green in others, lots of variability.
http://apex.ipk-gatersleben.de/apex/f?p=265:3:17083293814673::NO::P3_SCIENTIFIC_NAME:884

For comparison, I have also grown Allium hookeri var. muliense, very distinctive, I don't think it's a match for your plant.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2015, 11:01:00 PM by TheOnionMan »
Mark McDonough
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Rimmer de Vries

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Re: allium 2015
« Reply #61 on: August 06, 2015, 10:57:11 PM »
Hi Mark
 thank you for your help! 

here are some photos with a camera vs. iPhone of the A." sikkemense" of the leaves

Rimmer

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Rimmer de Vries

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Re: allium 2015
« Reply #62 on: August 06, 2015, 11:05:07 PM »
Hi Mark
here are better photos of the flat leaved allium with the stamens that extend past the tepals

Rimmer
Bowling Green, Kentucky USA
36.9685° N
USDA zone 6b-7a
Long hot humid summers
Cool wet winter
Heavy red clay soil over limestone karst

Jackie C

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Re: allium 2015
« Reply #63 on: August 07, 2015, 06:28:51 PM »
Hi Mark

Thanks for all the information. The link you sent to the German website is amazing. I looked at all the photos one had a flower similar to mine but none of the leaves are right. I have included a picture of the whole plant ( I purchased it already in a pot and I think the bulbs might be on short rhizomes but I don't want to dig about too much until it has gone dormant). I have also included a picture of this unknown allium leaf next to an obliquum leaf. The A. obliquum leaf is very flat and much wider than the other one. But the biggest difference is the leaf is narrower, fatter and hollow. I have drawn a cross section next to the leaf.

From your picture of A. hookeri var muliense it is not that. There is no pink on any of the flowers but do you think it might be A. stracheyi after all?

Thanks again for all your help.

Jackie

TheOnionMan

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Re: allium 2015
« Reply #64 on: August 07, 2015, 07:07:38 PM »

From your picture of A. hookeri var muliense it is not that. There is no pink on any of the flowers but do you think it might be A. stracheyi after all?

Thanks again for all your help.

Jackie

Jackie, your photos are tiny, just a smidgeon larger than the thumbnails when clicked on, so I can't see any of the detail.  Can you repost much larger photos please.
Mark McDonough
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Jackie C

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Re: allium 2015
« Reply #65 on: August 08, 2015, 11:12:00 AM »
Hi Mark

Sorry about that we have so many problems with our broadband I had compressed them to get both on the same posting but made them too small.

Jackie

Brian Ellis

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Re: allium 2015
« Reply #66 on: August 08, 2015, 04:35:03 PM »
That one looks right John. It's sort of fun to learn of one's hybrids becoming so broadly distributed, to the point they're offered for sale at grocery chains, Millenium has become a household commodity.
Well it certainly is getting nicely spread around.  It was admired in John Metcalfe's garden in Forncett on a recent Hardy Plant Society visit so he brought several along with him to raise funds for the group at today's social.  They were snapped up in no time!
Brian Ellis, Brooke, Norfolk UK. altitude 30m Mintemp -8C

Maggi Young

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Re: allium 2015
« Reply #67 on: August 12, 2015, 07:23:46 PM »
This is a long story- so I've added all the relevant quotes!
Quote
Quote from: TheOnionMan on July 10, 2015, 09:16:50 PM

    Wim, I can't find much at all, on an Allium named 'Valerie Finnis', of course we all know the famous Muscari cultivar by that name, and apparently there's an Artemisia cultivar by that name too. What can you tell us about that Allium. Looks like one of a number of pale red & white forms of Allium paniculatum.
Actually McMark, I have no idea, I received it as a gift from a friendly nursery-woman 5 years ago, she lost hers in the same year and 2 years ago I gave her back a big clump, now she's selling it at her nursery. I'll ask her, the only thing I remember is that she bought it on one of her travels in England.
To my eye, A. 'Valerie Finnis' is superficially similar to this plant shown at the AGS Pershore show: https://lawrencepeetalpines.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/image67.jpg


 
Indeed it is, Matt - well spotted!
 That plant has a label saying Allium serra - though none of the pix I've seen of that have the pendant flowers of that plant or of the 'Valerie Finnis' - the plot thickens!

 Roland has shown a similar plant, which he obtained as A. Serra, pix here : http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=6685.msg209552#msg209552   but which Mark McDonough identified as a low-growing form of Allium paniculatum. In subsequent posts to the one shown above, McMark gives various links to show the photos of true A. serra

Seems there may be more than one supplier calling this plant, in  error, A. serra!

In a 2002 bulletin of the AGS, issue 290/No70, page 416, Allium 'Valerie Finnis' is described just with that name (no species mentioned)  as  being "about 10cm  or a little more" and  having "pendant flowers with a very difficult-to-describe colour combination. The petals are partly a muted pale reddish-brown and partly cream. This sounds dull, but is, in fact quietly attractive."


This is the plant, pictured by Wim B. in 2014


I wrote to Vic Aspland, who had made that note in the AGS bulletin to see what he might recall of the provenance of the plant . Here is his reply:

"Hello Maggi,

Many apologies for the delay in responding to your email.

Like you, I searched all over the place for info on this plant.

I eventually discovered that it is a selection of Allium pallens.

Who told me this, I cannot remember, but I subsequently raised A. pallens from seed for comparison and, to be perfectly frank, could not see any difference between the two.

One usually expects a named form to be superior in some way, but this appears not to be the case on this occasion.

Both plants seem to be particularly vulnerable to high rainfall during summer; I have been reduced to just a few bulbs in a wet summer. Good drainage seems to be essential.

Kind regards,

Vic "

An excellent result in getting this information, I think - thanks to Vic.  8)


Margaret Young in Aberdeen, North East Scotland Zone 7 -ish!

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WimB

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Re: allium 2015
« Reply #68 on: August 13, 2015, 08:55:38 PM »
Allium pallens?? Isn't that one a white flowering one...It grows on the Iberian peninsula...maybe one of our Spanish forumnists can shed some light on this...
Wim Boens - Secretary VRV (Flemish Rock Garden Society) - Seed exchange manager Crocus Group
Wingene Belgium zone 8a

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Maggi Young

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Re: allium 2015
« Reply #69 on: August 13, 2015, 09:01:59 PM »
Wondering if there are various colour forms though?
Oron has cited a photo here : http://www.plantarium.ru/page/image/id/98018.html   of A. pallens subsp coppoleri  and there are various pix of other A. pallens - supposedly - here
 https://www.facebook.com/groups/575374019245196/search/?query=pallens   ( I hope this page is open for all to see.) They are  of a form with out-facing white  globe type flowers.  :-\
« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 09:04:49 PM by Maggi Young »
Margaret Young in Aberdeen, North East Scotland Zone 7 -ish!

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Mark Griffiths

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Re: allium 2015
« Reply #70 on: August 14, 2015, 06:03:54 PM »
hi, can anyone identify this Allium? It came from AGS sed as A. acuminatum  ::) obviously it isn't but I'd like to know what it is. Bad picture of the leaves - they seems flattened and twisted. It maybe a bit taller than it should be as it was growing in shade. Quite pretty though.


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TheOnionMan

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Re: allium 2015
« Reply #71 on: August 15, 2015, 01:38:53 AM »
This is a long story- so I've added all the relevant quotes!

 
This is the plant, pictured by Wim B. in 2014
(Attachment Link)

I wrote to Vic Aspland, who had made that note in the AGS bulletin to see what he might recall of the provenance of the plant . Here is his reply:

"Hello Maggi,

Many apologies for the delay in responding to your email.

Like you, I searched all over the place for info on this plant.

I eventually discovered that it is a selection of Allium pallens.

Who told me this, I cannot remember, but I subsequently raised A. pallens from seed for comparison and, to be perfectly frank, could not see any difference between the two.

One usually expects a named form to be superior in some way, but this appears not to be the case on this occasion.

Both plants seem to be particularly vulnerable to high rainfall during summer; I have been reduced to just a few bulbs in a wet summer. Good drainage seems to be essential.

Kind regards,

Vic "

An excellent result in getting this information, I think - thanks to Vic.  8)

That one is surely NOT pallens.  Growing Alliums from seedexes results in very high risk of misidentified plants, thus growing seed labeled as pallens has very high risk of not being true.  The gorgeous clump shown, photographed by Wim, is indeed a form of Allium paniculatum.
Mark McDonough
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wmel

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Re: allium 2015
« Reply #72 on: August 16, 2015, 10:45:43 PM »
I was wondering if someone could help me identify this allium. I purchased it as A. stracheyi but I don't think it is. I know if you look at various sites selling it they have a plant that looks like mine. But I have a copy of the book Allium and Milula in the central and eastern Himalaya by William T Stearm and it describes A. stracheyi as follows ' Tepals purple, pink or reddish with a deeper red mid nerve: Leaves not more than 3mm broad' so it can't be that! It looks a bit like A. obliquum but isn't. It has a different leaf shape, narrower and fatter and only sheaths the lower 8th. It flowers later than A. oliquum and the tepals are more open. I did consider A.hookeri car muliense but again the leaf isn't right. Anybody got any other ideas?

It looks like what I grow as allium condensatum
« Last Edit: August 17, 2015, 01:51:55 PM by Maggi Young »
Wietse Mellema, Klutenweg 39 I, Creil  Netherlands
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Roma

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Re: allium 2015
« Reply #73 on: August 20, 2015, 10:18:49 PM »
I bought a pack of 'mixed shallots' in Dobbies (Taylor's Bulbs) in the spring.  One produced flower buds which I have not seen in shallots before.  I have not dug up the bulbs but there are three flowering stems. 
Roma Fiddes, near Aberdeen in north East Scotland.

Maggi Young

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Allium papers/articles
« Reply #74 on: August 22, 2015, 12:39:44 PM »
A NEW ENDEMIC SUBSPECIES OF ALLIUM PHANERANTHERUM (AMARYLLIDACEAE) FROM TURKEY AND ITS ANTIPROLIFERATIVE EFFECTS ON MCF-7 HUMAN BREAST CANCER CELL LINE
Conference Paper · January 2014

Conference: 23° ITALO-LATINAMERICAN ASIAN & AFRICAN CONGRESS OF ETHNOMEDICINE

Gulnur Eksi   Ankara University
Filiz Bakar
Mehmet Bona  Istanbul University
Ceyda Sibel Kılıç
Ayşe Mİne Gençler Özkan
 - in pdf 1.35MB

Allium therinanthum (Amaryllidaceae), a new species from Israel
ARTICLE in PHYTOTAXA · APRIL 2014
Impact Factor: 1.38 · DOI: 10.11646/phytotaxa.164.1.3

5 AUTHORS, INCLUDING:
Ori Fragman-Sapir
Jerusalem Botanical Gardens

Cristina Salmeri
Università degli Studi di Palermo

in pdf 4.97MB

If anyone would like to see these  papers, please PM me
Margaret Young in Aberdeen, North East Scotland Zone 7 -ish!

Editor: International Rock Gardener e-magazine

 


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