September 2015 in the Northern Hemisphere

[astragalus]

Robert, can you please explain "out-breeding"  and "obligate in-breeders"?

[Robert]

Robert, can you please explain "out-breeding"  and "obligate in-breeders"?

Anne,

We understand in-breeding as self pollination, pollination with a sibling, or very closely related relative. Out-breeding is the complete opposite, pollination with an unrelated plant. This can be within the same species or the use of another species.

An obligate out-breeder would be something like a Lily. A lily will not accept its own pollen. To in-breed a Lily one needs to cross it with a sibling. An obligate in-breeder is a plant that can do nothing but accept its own pollen. Plants of this sort are rare, however they do exist.

In the case of Lupines, the way the flowers are designed out breeding is difficult but it does happen more often than we would think, especially if there are many insect pollinators active at the time of flowering.

In the vegetable world, modern open pollinated tomatoes, beans, and peas are generally highly inbred. They do not suffer from inbred depression. Years ago I created a hybrid tomato I called 'Freya's Tears Hybrid'. In this case, one of the parents of this hybrid I inbreed for 8 generations and then crossed it with another inbred line that I maintained to create a uniform F1 hybrid. It is a little more complicated than this, but this is the general idea.

I am going on a hunch, thus believe that out-breeding some of our favorite Fabaceae could result in some new, different, and exciting new plants for our gardens. This could include out-breeding between different species, but could also include out-breeding between unrelated parents within the same species.

I have cross pollinated some Fabaceae and know that there are technical difficulties cross pollinating them. Carefully take a flower apart and you will see part of what I am explaining. Having the stigma dry-out after cross pollinating is another obstacle that needs to be overcome. Anyway, there could be some possibilities there for folks like me that is interested in such things.

[Hoy]

Robert,

I think out-breeding some of the difficult-to-grow peas could make them easier. You can get a hybrid swarm and some of the progeny should be easier to grow

[arisaema]

Pleased to find Cremanthodium rhodocephalum, both in flower - and in seed 

[Hoy]

Will they appear in your seedlist

Would be pleased to have in the garden also!

[arisaema]

It will, the plants in sunnier positions had ripe seeds, thankfully. It looks easy enough to grow, at least in Scotland, Norway and similar climates, it's another one of those (lovely) roadside weeds 

[Anthony Darby]

Robert,

I think out-breeding some of the difficult-to-grow peas could make them easier. You can get a hybrid swarm and some of the progeny should be easier to grow

Gregor Mendel made out-breeding in peas famous. Wonder if he thought of trying with lupins?

[Maggi Young]

Pleased to find Cremanthodium rhodocephalum, both in flower - and in seed 

Isn't the colour lovely? I love Cremanthodiums.  Ian  waxes lyrical about them in the Tromso Botanic Garden.

[Robert]

Robert,

I think out-breeding some of the difficult-to-grow peas could make them easier. You can get a hybrid swarm and some of the progeny should be easier to grow

Trond,

Right now I have it in my mind to work with some of the more difficult-to-grow Lupines. Easier-to-grow forms of Lupinus lepidus, especially lobbii, L. grayii, and L. breweri seem to me as if they would be good additions to a garden. Also, an improved Lupinus argenteus could be stunning. Anyway, there seems to be much potential, and they grow locally so I can be very proactive in my efforts. It all takes time, but progress is already being made.

I am also intrigued with the whole Lotus, Hosackia, Acmispon complex. They seem completely overlooked even locally here in California.

[Tim Ingram]

The seed of this was labelled L. breweri - for anyone likely to be tempted by these wonderful lupins as well - and another species we had was L. excubitus var. austromontanus (sadly this succumbed to molluscs! - but has beautiful foliage too). A careful watch has to kept for the lupin aphid which can decimate plants almost overnight if not caught in time.

[David Nicholson]

Tim, do you grow any of the large garden Lupins and do they suffer from Lupin aphids too. I could be easily tempted by some of the small ones.

[astragalus]

Robert, thank you so much for your explanation, I was totally at sea.
Tim, great foliage on L. breweri.  The small lupines seem difficult to keep here for longer than a couple of years.

[Tim Ingram]

David - we grow quite a few species including arboreus, chamissonis, variicolor and albifrons. They all get lupin aphid, which is a sort of supercharged version of aphid specific to lupins as far as I know. I've never succeeded with the really small species - I wonder if Michal Hoppel grows them in Poland? Hot dry summers and cold winters must be closest to what they need. I don't think any are really long lived but even to grow them for a couple of years is pretty exciting and they do set seed well.

[David Nicholson]

Thanks Tim. I grow a few of the large garden hybrids but have never had any infestatations on them. I see from the RHS Link below that the Lupin aphid was introduced here from North America!

https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profile?PID=653

[astragalus]

Sorry, David.