Pleione 2017

[Steve Garvie]

Pleione x taliensis -apparently thought to be a natural hybrid of yunnanensis and bulbocodioides. Some certainly look like they are but others appear to have the influence of additional species.

[john hodgson]

Just for comparison Steve, here is my  Pln. x taliensis 'Lushan'

[Steve Garvie]

Thanks John.
I find both x taliensis and x barbarae to be highly variable.

Here are a selection of pleione which I have labelled as x barbarae:

[john hodgson]

Steve, regarding your x barbarae, oddly when I first looked at your x taliensis, I thought how much your last photograph looked like some x barbarae I've seen (though presumably the x taliensis in that last image is a smaller bloom than x barbarae). I realise that with bulbocodiodes in both hybrids, similarities are inevitable - which makes identification tricky!

Oh... and I think your final x barbarae has a very fine form.

[vigor]

Pleione x taliensis -apparently thought to be a natural hybrid of yunnanensis and bulbocodioides. Some certainly look like they are but others appear to have the influence of additional species.

Steve, to me all your ×taliensis seems to be ×barbarae
and ×barbarae itsself probably hybrid with a third species——yunnanensis because I found they are co-ocurring in central Yunnan Province

[sjusovare]

I'm not so sure we should considere the actual repartition of the species when we seek for probable parent of a natural hybrid, because indeed, they do occure or not occure in the same areas today, but perhaps not so much 50 or 100 years ago, and we have no clue as to when the cross took place. Only genetic mapping would give us the answer.

The variability of forms can be accounted by the fact that those plants comes from hybrid swarm, with several generations and backcrosses among them.

[Steve Garvie]

Thanks Vigor and Julien.

Vigor I find it very interesting that you have some experience of these plants in the wild. Clearly you found x barbarae to be very variable, were they growing in the company of grandiflora and bulbocodioides (and also yunnanensis)? Did you feel that the x barbarae hybrids were out-competing their parent species? Is there any evidence that human activity is allowing natural species to mix which then encourages hybridization? The hybrid vigour of such plants might result in the hybrids out competing and replacing their parent species.
I get the impression that pleione speciation was driven by long term population isolations rather than specific niche adaption (the latter would allow species to co-exist within a geographical area whilst the former might encourage hybridization).

[vigor]

Julien, I agree with you that the variability of × barbarae is because they are from a hybrid swarm and only genetic mapping would give us the answer.
A third species’ involvement in the hybridisition is just a wild guess.


Steve, I believe × barbarae growing in the company of grandiflora but I didn't see it with my own eyes. Flora of China treats these two as one under the name of Pleione grandiflora based on the fact that these two only differ in the flower colour. Indeed, some forms of × barbarae have the same flower morphology with grandiflora, sometimes I wonder if the white grandiflora is just a white form, as other species in the genus, such as  white formosana, forrestii, scopulorum...The situation of × barbarae seems to be more complicated than we think. As Julien said, only genetic mapping would give us an unimpugnable answer.
Human disturbances do faciliate natural species to hybridise. However, two population in the wild was told to me that either white or pink flower in a population (not a mix group as scopulorum, see the pictures below). My few wild experiences indicate co-occuring species often share same or similar niche. On Cangshan, a mountain near Dali in west Yunnan, forrestii, albiflora and ×taliensis can be found on the same cliff.

[ashley]

A cascade of pleiones; what an amazing sight

[Steve Garvie]

Pleione aurita -3 different forms with slight variations on the lip.
The final image is from a huge pseudobulb that I bought as Pln. aurita from a German source (though I think it was bred & raised by the dutch company Anthura)-it looks to me to be an aurita hybrid which is a bit disappointing.

[Tim Harberd]

Hi Guys,
   I’m enjoying the photos… Sorry I’ve been ‘out of it’ for a while.

Hi John,
   Your star gazing x barbarae is interesting. I’ve always thought that this behaviour is a desirable trait and I have one cultivar which does it consistently. Attached a photo of P. Stromboli  'Senorita' taken from directly overhead. I don’t think I’ve ever posted one from that angle before! Also a more normal shot of the same pan.
   The upright flowering trait is a particular bonus today since my $£%&* back has ruled out any bending down for a week or so!!

Hi Vigor,
   Habitat & wild shots are always much appreciated… I’ve forwarded a couple of them to my Dad who was once in Dali, but on that particular occasion Cangshan was wrapped in ‘Red Tape’.
( $£%&* times at least ten!!!)

Tim DH

[sjusovare]

Steve, I've encountered exactly the same , a pleione bought as aurita from a reliable seller which turned out with the same spots...

[Steve Garvie]

Julien, do you have any idea what the other parent might be?
This makes me worry about other "species" from this source. 

[sjusovare]

Steve.. not sure really, I was considering grandiflora regarding the wide lip and the brown spots, but it doesnt look like any Muriel I've seen.
Karel suggested it was most likely a reverse cross of Kima (in this case it would be aurita as a pod parent and chunii as a pollen parent), but it doesnt look like the Kimas I've seen either, and the flowers are much much bigger than regular Kima... so it remains unconclusive.

What is even more disturbing in my case is that the other plants of the same origin which the seller stil has flowered as true aurita... so it might just be a genetic accident somewhere down the line...

[sjusovare]

Some people suggested that it looked like Burnsall (yunnanensis x aurita).
The plant I have seems much too big compared to confirmed burnsall I have, and also lack the tall stem and some yellow on the lip...
I guess we'll never know, might be better to label it as Pln somethingensis