Narcissus - Spring 2018 (from February onwards)

[annew]

Sometimes, seedlings can be quite surprising:

Sometimes they make me laugh:

Sometimes they make you wish you hadn't bothered:

And sometimes they make you thankful to friends far away - look at the variation in this pot of seeds sent to me by forumist Lesley Cox:

[ielaba2011]

Jaime,
It's not unusual to be puzzled when you try to identify Narcissus (bulbocodium) obesus. My 'daffodil bible' - Narcissus from Blanchard (1990) stated in the beginning: There is more disagreement about this variety than any other.
Even Iberian botanists (Fernandes/Valdes) don't agree whether ' obesus ' should be treated as a species, subspecies or a variety.
This means to me that there must be a lot of variation between plants which are united under the term mentioned.
Besides this I believe that a species with a such large distribution (Portugal/Spain/Morocco) necessarely  might not be uniform.  which incurve at the margin,

Personally I prefer a (nonscientific) simple view and call all plants as Narcissus obesus which show the characteristics of rather large flowers, a deep yellow corona, which incurve at the margin, held on short stems in connection with prostrate and fleshy stems.
It would be interesting if you  let us know how uniform the plants within the populations you mentioned here are.

Gerd

Thank you Greg for your explanation.

I think I already had notieced some variety within the bulbocodium subspecies,  I was aware of its variability but, clearly ,I wasn't fully prepared to make a positive ID distinction betwen both subspecies..or I should say species...when you mention  "a corona which incurve at the margin" I can now distinctly relate to the obesus species, and the gold deep yellow flower, in contrast to a paler yellow...but, I definately came across some obesus narcissi with some rather thin leaves, and maybe somewhat  grassy leaves. Also as @Karaba was saying I was going through the photos from http://flora-on.pt/#/d20 of the portuguese flora, which stresses the importance of these green marks in the back of the corona, and aparently I can find the green marks more of less notable, again in both species. So, that's why we were misleaded to a wrong N. bulbucodium sbsp. bulbocodium identificarion .

Thank you for making the point with this species, I think now I'm aware of a much better way to aproach both species.

Next time I will try to make photos of both populations of obesus, shwoing the diversity of this species.

Jaime Eusebio

[ielaba2011]

I think that Jaime refer to this : http://flora-on.pt/#/d20 Lots of pictures of both species on the same site which show the variety in height of stem and form of the corolla : http://flora-on.pt/#/1Narcissus+bulbocodium

From a genetic point of view, Fonseca et al. (2015) (https://www.repository.utl.pt/bitstream/10400.5/14987/1/REP-JCCOSTA-Phylogenenetic%20approach%20of%20the%20section%20Bulbocodii-1.pdf be careful figures are mixed !) have shown that N. obesus has its organella (mitochondry + chloroplast) closer to cantabricus than other bulbocodium species. This have been also shown in the last study on the phylogeny of Narcissus. The nuclear phylogeny is different, obesus is closer that other bulbocodium species which suggest an old hybridisation. Anyway, with those studies, Narcissus obesus is now usually consider as a valid species and one of the most distinct of the bulbocodium like species.

Thank you Yvain for the paper completly new to me,  very interesting to me how mitochondrial dna puts obesus closer to Narcissus cantabricus and thus a maternal lineage to this species.... but, also this group it's not monophiletic and much more complex. They also say some mofologic caracteristics have limited taxonomic utility... hello ..green marks on the back of the corona??

Is there any chance of obesus becoming a fully recognised species within few years?
I would love to further study this bulbococium species. Very interesting. 

Jaime

[YT]

Sometimes, seedlings can be quite surprising:
Sometimes they make me laugh:
Sometimes they make you wish you hadn't bothered:
And sometimes they make you thankful to friends far away - look at the variation in this pot of seeds sent to me by forumist Lesley Cox:

In the third picture, it looks a mini pink trumpet for me

[YT]

Narcissus ‘Trumpet Voluntary’
It has been categorised in "standard" height in the DaffSeek but it is true miniature at my place

[YT]

Narcissus watieri
Morocco, Atlas Mts., Toubkal. 2400m. Stony slopes.
It's very shy to flower at my place... I probably have to feed them more

[Maggi Young]

Narcissus ‘Trumpet Voluntary’
It has been categorised in "standard" height in the DaffSeek but it is true miniature at my place

It looks  just perfect!

[Maggi Young]

Narcissus watieri
Morocco, Atlas Mts., Toubkal. 2400m. Stony slopes.
It's very shy to flower at my place... I probably have to feed them more

Perhaps a little feed would help - but I am pleased to see this is the form I prefer, without the  folded edges  to the petals. So much more elegant.

[YT]

Thank you and your advice, Maggi Yes, this N. watieri is one of my most favourite daffs.

[Gerdk]

Thank you Greg for your explanation.

I think I already had notieced some variety within the bulbocodium subspecies,  I was aware of its variability but, clearly ,I wasn't fully prepared to make a positive ID distinction betwen both subspecies..or I should say species...when you mention  "a corona which incurve at the margin" I can now distinctly relate to the obesus species, and the gold deep yellow flower, in contrast to a paler yellow...but, I definately came across some obesus narcissi with some rather thin leaves, and maybe somewhat  grassy leaves. Also as @Karaba was saying I was going through the photos from http://flora-on.pt/#/d20 of the portuguese flora, which stresses the importance of these green marks in the back of the corona, and aparently I can find the green marks more of less notable, again in both species. So, that's why we were misleaded to a wrong N. bulbucodium sbsp. bulbocodium identificarion .
Thank you for making the point with this species, I think now I'm aware of a much better way to aproach both species.
Next time I will try to make photos of both populations of obesus, shwoing the diversity of this species.
Jaime Eusebio

Jaime,
Late - but I hope not too late - I now came to the realisation that I made my comments to your  ' obesus ' pictures rather flippant and
mainly based on experience with specimen obtained from non wild (or unknown) origin.
These plants exhibit the characteristics mentioned by me - it is quite possible that the situation at the natural habitat is totally different. So I have to confess that I am not as convinced about my identification as I stated formerly.
Please let me tell you that I am very pleased about the contributions from your country, hoping you will continue.
I'll try to comment more carefully in the future

Gerd

[YT]

Narcissus atlanticus, JJA 694.100

[ashley]

That atlanticus is wonderful to see Tatsuo, along with your beautiful watieri above

[ielaba2011]

Jaime,
Late - but I hope not too late - I now came to the realisation that I made my comments to your  ' obesus ' pictures rather flippant and
mainly based on experience with specimen obtained from non wild (or unknown) origin.
These plants exhibit the characteristics mentioned by me - it is quite possible that the situation at the natural habitat is totally different. So I have to confess that I am not as convinced about my identification as I stated formerly.
Please let me tell you that I am very pleased about the contributions from your country, hoping you will continue.
I'll try to comment more carefully in the future

Gerd

Hi Gerd,
You did well, I have to thank you for making me aware of this kind of mistakes regarding N. bulbocodium identification.
Anayway, I think you were right, all of those were  N. obesus, and specially the corona incurved at the margin makes it all more clear now.
Thank you.
Jaime.

[ielaba2011]

These must be the last photos of N. obesus from this season. The photos were taken last week, and after the heavy rains they probably won't last much longer. Saying that, we started to have flowers from Narcissus obesus since the midle of February, we are now close to the end of March...

Photos were taken in the cliffs near the village of S. Martinho do Porto.

[Gerdk]

What a sight - much better than in my greenhouse!
Thank you Jaime.

Gerd