HORTUS BULBORUM or TREASURY OF HISTORIC BULBS

[Boyed]

I will try to answer Jim’s questions by order;

Rembrandt Tulips
Jim I understand what you mean. During tulip mania period the name Rembrandt was applied to the striped varieties of Darwins, as they were also other groups of  striped tulips as Bibliomen, Bizrars, etc. But when it was discovered that those stripes mainly were caused by a virus, scientists started to revise all the tulips from that divisions and selected only the ones which were striped, but genetically healthy. As the amount of those tulips shortened seriously, it was decided to merge all striped tulips in one division called Rembrandt and now includes all striped, but virus-free Darwins, Cottages and Breeders. Though being free from virus, these tulips lost their popularity, as it was difficult for the gardeners to distinguish between healthy and infected plants. In current tulip register Rembrandt tulips are division 9 and only 5 varieties, including ‘Insulinde and “Gala Beauty” (syn. ‘Columbus’, ‘French Crown”’) were left. There are around 10-15 such tulips, free from virus in existence, as, for example, “Black Boy’ (from old Bizarre group), but they were dismissed from the register due to low demand. Earlier Rembrandt division included striped sports “Union Jack” and “Cordell Hall” from Darwin tulip “Bartigon”, but as their stripes had a symmetry, it was later decided to transfer then into Darwin tulip group, which is now merged with Single Late division. In addition, I want to say that true Rembrandt tulips (from the modern point of view) don’t have their breeder forms. They are just varieties, not broken virused tulips from Breeders, Darwins and Cottages.

About the beauty of striped tulips;
Indeed, they look very colorful and many people admire them very much. I understand. But what I want to say. There are true Rembrandt virus-free tulips sold by specialized companies and gardeners can acquire such varieties and grow in their garden with normal tulips. Those, who just want to grow virused ones (they are such people), they just must forget about growing other tulips, as well as crocuses, bulbous irises, narcissus and other bulbs, as this type of virus infects these generas too. And there is no need to pay high prices for virused tulips, offered by specialized companies; as ordinary varieties, sold in garden centers, get the same beautiful patterns when infected. So people can by them and infect artificially.
Yesterday on the way home I just visited a small garden of an unknown to me person and photographed his virused tulips. Just look at the way they look. It is SLG tulip “Red Lory”, infected with virus. I think broken tulip “Lord Stanly” sold by OGH doesn’t look better than this one.

About identifying virus on Rembrandt tulips;
Before buying the cultivar, it is necessary to have its detailed description and characteristics; for example, how many colours (combination) are typical for that variety 2 or 3. In case of catching virus other alien colour, not characteristic for the variety appears on the flower together with its own colours.
But I will say a more reliable method for identifying virus. All the varieties when catch colour- breaking virus show the symptoms of mosaic in their leaves at the same time (darker or lighter green irregular stripes in the normal green background of the leaf - not to be confused with leaf veins). The mosaic is especially easily observed on the younger leaves. The stripes are more obvious when the plants are observed not under the sunlight. The observation is especially recommended to be done during the begging of growth ,as on the mature leaves the mosaic is not very easily observed and can be confused with leaf veins, which become more prominent at that time). This method allows me to destroy virused plants in the beginning of grown, before appearing of aphids. So I don’t wait for my tulips to bloom in order to trash infected samples. But this is in case of tulip breaking virus (TBV).

There is another wildly spread tulip virus, called Tulip Mild Mottle Mosaic Virus (T MMMV), which, affects red-coloured and dark colored varieties. The stripes on the flowers in this case have no so much contrast, as with TBV. Plants, affected with this virus, don’t show mosaic symptoms on their leaves, and so I wait for the flowers to bloom in order to destroy the plants. for those who would like to know more about this type of virus I can give further explanations.

[Joakim B]

Boeyd and Jim
This has been, and still is, a very interesting and educational discussion for an amateur tulip grower. I thank You both for this input and hope You continue. More people than Yourself is following this discussion with great interest.
Kind regards
Joakim

[Hans A.]

I agree with Joakim - it is a very interesting discussion even if I am not a tulipgrower - anymore.
Some years ago I ordered Tulipa acuminata but got another striped tulip - during flowering time I lifted to destroy them, but as I had to regonize it was to late - Iris planifolia and some Crocus had signs of virus. So I dammed all tulips (and strong narcissushybrids) of the garden because I was told plants can be virusinfected without showing any sign of it - worse of all: many virus can be hidden in other types of plants.
On the other hand I am sure many bulbs are destroyed because suspected in having virus - I nearly destroyed one Onco, but after a treatment with a fungicid I finally found out it had not.

Hope this was not to Off Topic. Thanks for this good discussion.

[Jim McKenney]

There are around 10-15 such tulips, free from virus in existence, as, for example, “Black Boy’ (from old Bizarre group), but they were dismissed from the register due to low demand.

Zhirair, I got this far into your responds and had to stop and respond.

Tulipa 'Black Boy' still exists? It's my ALL TIME FAVORITE bizarre tulip. Again, I grew this in the past and have old slide images of it.

It's wonderful to think that I might be able to grow it again.

[Jim McKenney]

And there is no need to pay high prices for virused tulips, offered by specialized companies; as ordinary varieties, sold in garden centers, get the same beautiful patterns when infected. So people can by them and infect artificially.
Yesterday on the way home I just visited a small garden of an unknown to me person and photographed his virused tulips. Just look at the way they look. It is SLG tulip “Red Lory”, infected with virus. I think broken tulip “Lord Stanly” sold by OGH doesn’t look better than this one.

Zhirair, on several occasions in my garden broken tulips have appeared spontaneously. Sometimes they are very beautiful. However, these spontaneous tulips in my experience do not survive long: I have never been able to keep one going from year to year and build up stock. It as if the sudden virus infection overwhelms the plant and it dies.

Also, did you mean to include a photo of the virus infected tulips in the garden you passed the other day?

[Boyed]

Jim

Pleased to hear that you grew tulip "Black Boy". Earlier was often offered in sale by Russian tulip growers and collectors. Now it only exists in the collections of some botanical gardens in CIS countries.

Jim, it's not surprising that you can't bulid up a stock of your broken tulips. It is said by some sources that the virus doesn't harm the bulb, but only causes color break. From my experience I can say (and it is not only my opinion) that it does seriously harm the bulb and if you grow infected tulips they degradate from year to year and die one day.

Jim, and I forgot to mention about the other quite interesting and important way to identify virus on true Rembrandt tulips. It is very recommended to by at least 7 to 10 plants of a desired variety for comparisons. True brocken tulips (virus free) - all the samples within a one variety look almost similar having the same patterns and color combinations (and the differences between samples among the same variety are not very serious). And if you increase the stock vegetatively the generation repeats the same patterns and picture in its color. Shotrly speaking - you get the same picture.

But if you have a look at a group of broken tulips (virus infected) of one variety. It'll be difficult to find even 2 plants having the same patterns in color. They all look different. When you multiply them vegetatively, you get quite different colour patterns. Just I posted above virused samples of tulip "Red Lory". Have a look, all three samples look different.

I didn't catch what you meant by saying - (Also, did you mean to include a photo of the virus infected tulips in the garden you passed the other day? )
 

[Joakim B]

Jim I think the last pics on page 4 is of the neighbours infected tulip.
Boyed please correct me if I am wrong
Kind regards
Joakim

[Jim McKenney]

Jim I think the last pics on page 4 is of the neighbours infected tulip.

Thanks,  Joakim. Now things make more sense. 

[Boyed]

Joakim,

Yes, you're right.

What else I wanted to show. I grow an interesting tulip bred in Belarus during 70s. It is called "Pesniary" ("Singers"). It starts flowering yellow with very narrow red egde (shown in TULIPA thread, but during flowering period the blooms turn yellow striped red, resembling a Rembrandt tulip. Here is a pic

[Lvandelft]

Zhirair, I did follow the discussion between you and Jim and talked to several people
about this matter and this resulted in the following:
The Chairman of the Tulip Committee Royal General Bulb-Growers Association wrote the following to me:

Most of the Rembrandt tulips have virus, at least all the older ones. Therefore it is in Holland not allowed to cultivate them free.
Nowadays it is only allowed to use healthy flamed tulips as Rembrandt Tulips!
These are Cultivars like Helmar, Princess Irene, Washington, Ida, Rem’s Favourite, etc.

I will try to get a list of these new Cultivars from the KAVB for you.

The old Rembrandt Group was removed from the Classified List since 1981, I believe.

It would be probably very good for your studies and future plans with publishing on your website, if you could come to Holland some Spring and see yourself how the practice works here and talk to gardeners and possibly research workers on this matter.

[Lvandelft]

Zhirair, there is one other thing I would like to tell you, but probably you do know this already.
I f you do have or find some new tulips from Russia or yourself, they should be registered at the KAVB in Holland. That is the only place in the world where this can be done. They are always interested being up to date in this matter.

[Boyed]

Luit,

Thanks a lot for your information. In addition, I would like to add some things to what you said.

Rembrandt tulip division are still in the last edition of register, which lists only 5 tulip varieties, that are underlined. They keep saying since 1981 that this devision is going to be removed and new division called Multiflowering Tulips will apear instead. But still changes weren't made.

Russian scientists say that the tulips from Rembrandt division, which are listed in the register are free from virus. I am not very sure because I haven't grown these varieties, but would like to try. Who knows, maybe they cought virus in Holland during mass cultivation. Interesting topic to go deeper and investigate. Some Rembrandt tulips are still avalable in Russia by specialized growers. I think I should obtain some and have some studies.

About Russian tulips. There were very talented tulip specialists in former USSR as Z.P. Bochantseva, Z.M. Silina, V.M. Kudriavtseva, Z.I. Luchnik etc, who raised very good tulips of good garden marit (many of them are interspecific crosses with Azian wild tulips for virus resistance). Many of their cultivars were registered in USSR, but no one in Holland, because of Iron Wall. After the collapse of USSR these tulips are in the danger of dissapearing and even some dissapered. There are no organisations now, who specialse in growing local varieties. Many just buy tulips from Hollnd and resell them in local market, thus making more profit. My aim is to collect them, thus preventing them from dissapearing, multiply and share with my collegues and other growers. Frankly speaking, it is a hard job for me, as they are now very hard-to-find. And most white and yellow colored types are virus-infected. In future my plans include sharing them with Hortus (if they would be interested), as it is a safe  and reliable place to preserve tulips.

And I would like to ask you to find out more about the definition of Breeder tulips, especially the differences between English and Dutch ones. I am interested if the difference is only in origin or the flower shape as well? I gave a definition of these tulips in my website according to my studies, but I would like to know other opinions as well to add to my knowledge.

By the way, visiting Holland is one of my dreams and I hope one day it'll happen.

[Lvandelft]

And I would like to ask you to find out more about the definition of Breeder tulips, especially the differences between English and Dutch ones. I am interested if the difference is only in origin or the flower shape as well? I gave a definition of these tulips in my website according to my studies, but I would like to know other opinions as well to add to my knowledge.

Zhirair, for this I have to search the library of KAVB and this would take very much time.
First I have to search for references to people who wrote about this matter and then I have to search these articles and read and compare.
Whenever you might have some references, please tell me.
Because this is a job inside, I will wait until winter, because I have to do many other things outside in the garden etc.

[Jim McKenney]

Because this is a job inside, I will wait until winter, because I have to do many other things outside in the garden etc.

Spoken (or written) like a true gardener, or at least a gardener after my own heart.

[Boyed]

Luit,

I would like to make some comments about the Rembrandt tulips.
The last register I had so far was 1987 edition, which listed only 5 cultivars from Rembrandt dision (N 9). It is stated in the register that all thise 5 cultivars are free from virus.

Recently I got a last 1996 edition of International Register and discovered that a lot of Rembrandt cultivars, including many virused ones (broken Breeder, Darwin and Coittage tulips), which were dismissed from previous editions, were again brought back, due to the fact that they are grown in historical collections. That is why now it is now stated in the last edition that Rembrandt division includes striped cultivars, most of which are virus infected. On a whole, I sow that many dismissed cultivars from different other divisions were re-included in the 1996 edition, because they're grown in Hortus and some other collections.

As to the modern flamed tulips, I think that they lack the beauty of real Rembrandt tulips.

Relating to the registration of Russian tulips.
Indeed, I would like to apply for their registration in KAVB. It is a best way to preserve them. But the thing is that their authors are not alive now. As far as I know I should have a written permission from the authors to register their varieties.