Iran 2008

[Maggi Young]

Anthony, you might at least add 'please' 

In answer to all those who have asked about the statistics and  demographic of the Forumists, and whether these are broken down by age and sex: I have to admit, yes, most of them........

[Michael J Campbell]

 

[David Nicholson]

Well age anyway. What was the other thing you mentioned?? 

[Lesley Cox]

Paul, we know you're a man because of your TyerMAN. But is Yvonne a Tyerwoman? (Though spelt differently, that's something else altogether.) Of course if it were not for that name, we'd not know whether you were a dog or a bitch.

I know someone whose daughter married a man with the surname of Stringleman. It was back in the days when feminism was rife. The woman concerned refused to change her maiden name to Stringleman and became ... Stringleperson.

[David Nicholson]

 

[Anthony Darby]

Ah, but son is a male child, so she should have been Stringlehuperchildbeing?

Overheard in Morningside (in Edinburgh). "Do you still have sex Millicent?" "Oh no no no Dorothy, we have no need as we have a wheely bin now."

[Paul T]

Paul, we know you're a man because of your TyerMAN. But is Yvonne a Tyerwoman? (Though spelt differently, that's something else altogether.) Of course if it were not for that name, we'd not know whether you were a dog or a bitch.

Lesley,

Doesn't my signature come through for you?  It should include "Paul T." as my name in there, so I would have thought (up until now at least) that that was fairly clear?

Do you have any more of your wonderful photos of Iran to share Arthur?

[art600]

Paul, we know you're a man because of your TyerMAN. But is Yvonne a Tyerwoman? (Though spelt differently, that's something else altogether.) Of course if it were not for that name, we'd not know whether you were a dog or a bitch.

Do you have any more of your wonderful photos of Iran to share Arthur?

Paul

At the moment I do not have the time to post more pictures.  It is distribution time for the Cyclamen Society Journal and that is taking a lot of my time.  Plus of course the garden and repotting.
Will certainly post more - probably next month and on a separate thread.

[Paul T]

No problemo Arthur, I understand.  I figured a quiet prompt wouldn't hurt, just in case.    Thanks for all the pics you've posted here.... they're positively fascinating. 

[Anthony Darby]

Is it official that Testudo ibera is no longer a subspecies of graeca?

Tortoise nomenclature evolves quickly : T. ibera was considered as a subspecies of graeca, but actually there are probably two parallele lineage, with a common ancestor : for graeca, evolution in Maghreb, for ibera, evolution in Asia Minor. Nowadays, the true ibera is located only in a small region of the north of Turkey, and the quite totality of all "iberas" in captivity are in fact Testudo racovitsai, from center Turkey and Balkans (Romania, Greece).
Iranian subspecies are Testudo perses and Testudo buxtonii but I just have a short description for each of them : they are unknown in captivity in France.

Jings. I must get myself an up-to-date book on the subject.

[biodiversite]

Jings. I must get myself an up-to-date book on the subject.

It does not exist  . The most interesting for taxonomy of these species was a special number of Manouria (the revue of a tortoise parc in Corsica), march 2004. Numerous things changed for three years, but the truth is that there is no consensus. The last one is at least 20 years old, and it doesn't recognise genus names as Agrionemys (for horsfieldi). Moreover, nowadays, hermanni and boettgeri are clearly distinct, as two different species, but in a different genus : not Testudo but Eurotestudo...

[Anthony Darby]

Does this mean hybrids, if they existed, between hermanii and boettgeri would be infertile? I have a young male (8 years) of the former and young female (3 years) of the latter. They are very similar in size. The former loves his comforts and spends most of his time in the indoor shelter with the heat mat. The latter would rather burrow into damp sand under a roof tile in the outside part of the enclosure. I intend to get a partner for each. I have a friend 50 miles north of me who breeds them commercially.

[biodiversite]

The notion of infertility between hybrid is an old criterium almost useful for mamalians only. Hermanni x boettgeri is possible, hermanni x hosfieldi, graeca x ibera, ibera x marginata, etc. But what is the interest to obtain hybrids ? The main aim of breeders nowadays is to maintain pure lineages, and when we know that total population of chelonians was divided in 90% for 100 years, it's a absolute necessity.

The problem is that a great number of breeders don't know from where they are their tortoises. For example, for France, there is a great problem for hermanni, as we have two populations : in Corsica and in Var. For years, they were only "hermanni". Some breeders did not mix the origins, but others crossed them. Nowadays, it is prooved that they are genetically different, but also morphologically... and the taxonomy still not differenciate the two origins, as subspecies for example. It is a pity : about 30% of breeders in France have hybrids, but the most sad is that wild population in Var, where some people put their tortoises, have 8% hybrids...

If you have a "boettgeri", it is important to diffenciate between "true" boettgeri and hercegovinensis, etc.

Then, it is difficult, but you have to find strict lineages and to avoid to make hybrids...

[Lesley Cox]

Doesn't my signature come through for you?  It should include "Paul T." as my name in there, so I would have thought (up until now at least) that that was fairly clear?

Of course it does Paul, but you know me by now. If there's a chance to have a go.......

[Paul T]

That's OK Lesley.  Just checking in case it wasn't..... Whew!