Bulb Log 17-01-07

[Thomas Huber]

Ahh yeah - seems like I have to read more carefully!
Thanks for waking me up 

[SueG]

I know I'm a bit late, but congratualtions on the medal, really pleased for you both. I'm looking forward to hearing Ian on erythroniums when he ventures over the border in March - even taking time off work to be able to be there!
Sue

[Luc Gilgemyn]

No problem Thomas !
I know you dream about bulbs all the time - so you do have to sleep to be able to do so... I have every understanding 
Hope it wasn't to much of a rude awakening...lol.

[snowdropman]

A few days ago, in his very interesting post, Valentin spoke about the importance of mycelia & bacteria in providing essential nutrition for snowdrops and suggested that when moving snowdrops 'in the green' moving some of the soil in which they had been growing (which contained their 'personal' mycelia/bacteria i.e. the mycelia/bacteria in which they had been growing) would help them to re-establish.

Joakim, whilst agreeing that mycelia/bacteria help strong/healthy growth, pointed out that most soils already contained these mycelia/bacteria & suggested that what is important therefore is to ensure that the new soil in which the 'in the green' snowdrop is planted should contain mycelia/bacteria.

Ian pointed out that if 'in the green' bulbs are treated very carefully they usually re-establish well.

I was thinking about my own experience with 'in the green' bulbs - I believe that the key factors are (1) digging them up carefully to minimise damage, both to the bulb and its roots (2) careful wrapping of the bulbs, taking particular care to ensure that the roots are kept moist and do not dry out (3) keeping to a minmum the amount of time that the bulbs are out of the ground.

When I exchange 'in the green' bulbs I lift the bulbs carefully, immediately wash off all soil from the roots, gently wrap the roots in paper towel & then wet this, put the snowdrop in a polythene bag, box it up and send it off the same day. I certainly have excellent results with bulbs received, that have been treated in this way, and understand that the bulbs that I send also re-establish well - the key point here is that all soil, and therefore the bulbs 'personal' mycelia/bacteria, is removed before the bulbs are sent.

This leads me to suggest that, whilst Valentin is right to stress the important nutritional contribution of mycelia/bacteria to the well being of the snowdrop, Joakim is right to point out that most soils already contain these mycelia/bacteria and that it is their presence in the soil that is important, not that the 'in the green' bulbs own 'personal' mycelia/bacteria is transported with them when the bulbs are moved.

[Ian Y]

Hans, Thomas and all I have not heard of Patentkali  before but I would suggest that this would be a good way to boost the potassium levels without adding any nitrogen. The additional ingredients of Magnesium and sulphur may also benefit the bulbs system without causing the excessive soft leaf and stem growth that nitrogen does.

On doing a bit of research into Patentkali  I found the text below describing the advantage to the plant of these nutrients and I could not have put it better myself so I have copied them. They are worth reading because by understanding how the plants use the various elememnts means we are better able to provide for them.

Potash (Potassium)
Potassium derives its more common name of ‘potash’ from the ancient discovery that ash from wood fires gathered in pots and applied to crops greatly enhanced the plants yield and vigour.  

Potash is a major plant nutrient, often referred to as a macronutrient due to the large quantities which plants require for healthy growth. In fact the amount of potash required by many species is similar or greater to the requirement for Nitrogen.
 
Potash has many roles in a wide variety of processes in plants and animals but the principle functions can be summarised as follows.
 
Water balance in the plant (osmoregulation) Potash is required to maintain the water pressure in the plants transport systems and in the cells. In this way, potash also plays a vital role in ensuring that other nutrients are transported efficiently around the plant, particularly from roots to the leaves, fruits and seeds. If potash is deficient, this transport system is compromised, the plant is more likely to be damaged in times of water stress and less able to transport the products of photosynthesis.
 
Enzyme Activation.
Potash is required by many enzymes in the plant as a type of trigger. Enzymes are special substances in nature which control virtually all of the many reactions and chemical pathways that occur within living organisms.
 
Natural anti-freeze.
The specific chemical properties of potash mean that a solution of water containing Potassium has a lower freezing point and thus adequate potash in the plant effectively gives the plant some anti-freeze properties. This can be particularly important with non-extreme frosts often experienced in the UK when the temperature is around the zero mark.
 
For more detailed information on every aspect of potash use visit the Potash Development Association (PDA) website. The PDA is an independent organisation providing information, guidance and advice for anyone using potash and is widely considered to be the expert voice on use of this nutrient.
 

Magnesium
Magnesium is also a macronutrient due the relatively high plant requirement for this mineral.
 
Magnesium is an important plant nutrient as it forms the core of the chlorophyll molecule, the substance present in all green plants which traps energy from the sun and converts it into useful forms of energy that the plant can utilise. Magnesium also has many other specific roles in plants such as controlling enzyme reactions, helping to maintain the chemical balance in cells and has important roles in protein synthesis.
 
Some crops such as potatoes and sugar beet are particularly sensitive to a Magnesium deficiency and other crops too often show the classic symptoms of chlorosis on the fully expanded leaves, particularly along the leaf veins.
 
Magnesium is available in many forms which differ enormously in the solubility, spreadability and availability. Because the Magnesium in Patentkali is readily water soluble, you can be sure that it is available for the crop immediately and does not need a low pH (acid conditions) to dissolve as some other forms of Magnesium require.

Sulphur
Sulphur is required by all plants although the amount needed varies considerably between plant species. The Sulphur requirement of crops had in the past been largely met from atmospheric pollution arising from power stations. With a recent reduction in the number of these and more efficient cleaning methods of emissions, Sulphur deposition is currently only some 15% of the levels that were deposited in 1980. As a result, over the last two decades more and more people have realised that crops have shown a positive response to an application of Sulphur and now it is routinely applied to a large percentage of crops.  
 
The principle role of Sulphur in plants is as a major component of some of the amino acids. These amino acids are the building blocks from which protein is made and therefore Sulphur nutrition is always associated with and linked to Nitrogen nutrition. In fact the ratio of N:S that most plants require is a very constant 12:1. Any less S and the N nutrition can be compromised. An excess of S however appears not to upset the balance and plants can regulate the quantity which they absorb.
 
The high level of Sulphur in Patentkali is present in the Sulphate form which is also the form that plants are able to absorb. No chemical transformation is required therefore and this important nutrient is available for immediate uptake.  

I think I will get hold of some Patentkali and try it out for myself.

[Hans J]

Dear Ian ,

Many thanks for your long and interesting answer .
I'm glad that you think too we can use this fertilizer - here is only one problem with the dose of them .
One the package is written only the quantity in g/m2  for other plants p.e. :
vegetables : 60-80
potato :      100 -150
fruits :        100 -150
berry :        80 -100
grass :        25-35
But there is nothing written about bulbplants -what is your suggestion ?

I have tried to make a powder from this grains -but impossibly .
A other try could be to make a solution with water -but how much g per ltr.?

Any ideas are welcome !

Thank you
Hans

[Ian Y]

It is difficult without seeing the material and the size of the grains but I would start to experiment by scattering  a small pinch on to the top of a pot and watering over it.
Each time you water some more will go into solution and down to the bulb I do not think that you will cause any harm this way and you can always increase the amount you put on if you think that is necessary.

[Joakim B]

Could the bigger size be an atempt to longer relese rather than direct with powder? Maybe it is ok to use the grains.
Just a thought
Joakim

[Hans J]

Hi Ian ,

Thank you
OK - I will test it , I think I will use ( for learnig the rigth dose ) a quantity of 35 gramm per m/2.

Best wishes
Hans

[Thomas Huber]

Thanks Ian for that very useful information!!!
Will also try Patentkali on my plants.
If you can't get it in Scotland, contact me and
I will send you a package!

[Luc Gilgemyn]

Interesting discussion going on here !  Thanks everyone for contributing.
The patentkali I started using last year is in grains approximately the size of a rice grain.  As I grow very little plants in pots, it was applied outside in the garden.  I sprinkled 10 to 50 grains around the plants according to the size of the group.  I noticed it had vanished after only a couple of rainy days - so it seems quite soluble.
So far I have not noticed any adverse effects, quite on the contrary.
A small group of Narcissus bulbocodium x mesatlanticus that had produced 2 or 3 flowers and quite some leaf in 2005 produced 7 flowers this year.
A group of crocus (don't recall the exact name at this moment... little grey cells a bit rusty this early in the morning) planted out some 10 years ago had been slowly loosing vigour and only produced 3 or 4 flowers last year.  Now it's showing 10 or 12 buds at least.

This may not all be down to the patentkali (I also fed them some bonemeal in september as per the bulb despot's recipee... ) but it sure looks promising.  I will be very anxious to find out how things develop as the season progresses.

I'm considering feeding some patentkali testwise to some of my Pleione this year to find out what the results are there.

I'll keep you posted.

[claykoplin]

Okay, I have to make a confession (one of those mistakes I just had to make myself), since you mention potash burn.  In a moment of pure lunacy, I decided to give a few pots of newly sprouted (a month old) fritillaria seedlings a "weak" feed of potash.  I put a teaspoon of 0-0-53 in a gallon of water thinking this quite weak enough.  Well, all the tips of the fritillaria seedlings browned halfway down the sprouts.  the remaining green parts seem to be surviving these last few weeks.  So how did your story end, Ian?  Please tell the me seedlings survived to form small bulbs...

Also, a favorite topic would be a log devoted to the Himalayan bulbs including nomocharis, notholirion, lilium, fritillaria, etc.  These seem like species adapted to your climate and, I hope, mine.  Hopefully they bloom close enough together to log them up if you run short on topics.

Thanks

[Gerdk]

I want to add to this theme that I am fertilizing with ' Patentkali ' since I noticed Ian's instructions in the bulb log. Outside  I use it unchanged (granular) and for bulbs in pots I grind it with a pestle in a mortar. This gave excellent results. Narcissus elegans var. oxypetalus sown in 1989 and a daffidil hybrid (perhaps N. x tuckeri) from 1991 both flowered the first time for me last year. Now the hybrid shows strong buds again. Some other autumn flowering daffs (N. humilis/ N. x perezlarae) did not respond as expected. Now I try to improve flowering with artificial light during late autumn and winter.
Gerd Knoche
Germany

[Ian Y]

Clay
I am afraid that the frit seedlings that I burnt with potassium did not survive as I damaged the roots before the bulb had formed. Well before it had reached a size to sustain it through dormancy but I did learn the lesson quickly. As your leaves are still partly green you have some hope that all is well below the ground.
Gerd good to learn that you have had good results using Patentkali, I look forward to hearing from others how they get on.

[Thomas Huber]

Clay, you're not the only one making a mistake with potash!
I have bought some "Pottasche" here which looked exactly like
the white powder Ian uses, but after using it on crocus seedlings
they died completely. Later I found out, that the German Pottasche
is Kalium-Carbonium, while Ians Potash is Kalium-Sulphate.
Hope this confession will help other people to avoid this mistake!