Arum maculatum 'Bakovci'

[Véronique Macrelle]

Arum maculatum 'Bakovci' grows slowly but surely, extremely variegated.

 I have a fructification that is as variegated as the leaves.

 does a seedling from a variegated plant produce variegated descendants?
Last year, I left them too long and an animal got to them before I did!

[Véronique Macrelle]

there were 9 viable seeds in these fruits. I removed them from their pulp, soaked them for a day and sowed them today. I imagine they will germinate in the autumn...

[Vinny 123]

The common variegated maculatum varieties come approx. true from seed, as do the varieties of italicum.

[Véronique Macrelle]

I hope they germinate this winter... I can't remember what month Arum maculatum leaves usually emerge from the ground in winter, can you?

[Vinny 123]

It will obviously vary location to location, but naturally being woodland/hedgerow plants, they are out of the ground very early, to catch the light before being shaded-out by trees, hedges and other herbaceous plants. They are commonly covered in light snow for a day or so. Educated guess here in UK midlands - probably (early) March.

I have just looked for the variety online and see that it is very highly variegated, which makes me think that it may be caused by virus (common in very many variegated plants), which may not transfer via seed. I would guess that most or all other forms of A. m. are genetic variants..................

It is also very expensive from UK nurseries, which suggests vegetative propagation too.

I have a variegated form of Zantedeschia aethiopica that is very similar in all respects, including price!!

Good luck in getting some variegation via seed. It will be interesting to see what if any variiation you do get.

[Mariette]

Arum maculatum ´Bakovci´grows since many years in my garden, even the spathe is variegated.



Some of the seedlings had plain green leaves, some were variegated similar to the mother plant. These last years some seedlings popped up showing the parentage of Arum maculatum var. maculatum.

[Vinny 123]

............. These last years some seedlings popped up showing the parentage of Arum maculatum var. maculatum.

I don't think that any vars are recognised?

Walking 100's of metres of the right hedgerow here in the UK, you can walk past literally 1000's of plants with every variation imaginable (except variegation).

Virus infection seems extremely likely as the source of variegation.

[Mariette]

Yes, there are varieties registered, look p. 48/49.   RHS Cultivar Registration Bulletins.htm

As the yellow variegation of Arum maculatum ´Bakovci´ is spread only by seed and not to adult plants in my garden since about 20 years, I don´t think it´s caused by virus.

[Vinny 123]

Many variegated cultivars of numerous species of plant are so because of believed virus infection. It does not spread (many will say that this is a shame).
This is why some variegated plants show (very) random variegation, and many revert (lose the vurus - I found a beautiful variegated Buddleja seedling at work, just growing beside the footpath - it is now plain green sadly).

If variegation was always genetic it is difficult to explain reversion.

The Genus Arum - Peter Boyce (Kew Monograph), does not recognise any varieties/sub-species, but lists many proposed ones.

There are cultivars, but that is different again.

[Robert]

The variegation pictured is the result of a chimera. This is genetic not a virus. Chimeras revert to their normal form all the time. Think in terms of a thornless boysenberry that becomes thorny or an orange that has partly thick skin and partly thin skin while other fruit on the same tree have all thin skin. There are so many different examples of chimeras. There are many examples of variegation that are the result of a chimera.  I bet if you Google photographs of chimeras in plants you will see very similar photographs. 

[Vinny 123]

I would like to see evidence of it being a chimera - that would take genetic testing to prove that one plant was in fact two, one inside the other.

The chimeras that I am familiar with don't appear like this at all - Sansevieria trifasciata "Whitney", and the graft chimera +Laburnocitisus. These are both extremely predictable and regular in appearance, in no way random.

Why would one half of a chimera die and leave the other unchanged?
I haven't googled it, but how would a chimera propagate to produce random offspring via seed?

[Robert]

There are very simple methods to both virus index and test a plant to confirm that a chimera is likely present that are simple to perform by a home gardener. The tests are applicable in most cases and give good results where applicable. Based on this discussion some of these tests have already been performed, even if this was not the intent. Good luck with your discoveries.

BTW - In my breeding work I get "random offspring" all the time. For example some chimeras characteristics are expressed in flowers i.e. orange and yellow streaked flowers in Tithonia (I have plants with this characteristic). Other parts of the same plant will often have normal orange flowers. If selfed, seed gathered from the orange flowers will be orange. If selfed, seed gathered from the orange and yellow streaked flowers are generally orange with yellow streaks, however there can be "random offspring", just like F1 generation hybrids are very uniform, however the F2 seedlings are most often extremely random. New tomato varieties can arise from a chimera that exhibits larger fruit on one branch. The flowers of this branch need to be selfed to retain this characteristic. It is all genetic. I see this all the time in my breeding work. With a virus infested plant the results are very different. Generalized virus indexing is very easy to perform. A chimera cannot be spread through virus indexing. I recommend everyone curious find out for themselves. It is easy to do.

BTW - The plant you mention likely contains a lethal or detrimental. This would easily explain why the chimera portion dies and the rest of the plant is unharmed. Parts of chimeras often lack chlorophyll. This would be an example of a potential lethal or detrimental. Think of Cyclamen seedlings that lack chlorophyll (all white). This is a lethal - all the seedlings die. In some climates the parts of the plant that lack chlorophyll frequently burn and die -this is a detrimental.

[Vinny 123]

Jalapa mirabilis (renamed I believe?)
It isn't a chimera.

Anyone who sows hundreds or thousands of seeds each year gets weirdos, just the law of averages, and I doubt that any significant number are chimeras.
This year I have a weird Sansevieria aethiopica. Not to my taste but it will sell well if it is stable.

I mentioned a Sansevieria and +Laburnocitisus - both plants of very long history, and long life. Sansevieria trifasciata "Whitney" is very slow growing, for a S. trifasciata mutation, especially as it is dark green, so has plenty of chlorophyll.

I would be very interested in seeing any published science to support your contention. (I do mean science, not hearsay and conjecture.) And also learn about anything that can be done by the "home gardener" that will confirm definitively that more than one genotype exists within one phenotype.

[Robert]

Hello Vinny,

I can definitely understand your skepticism.

This is where I am coming from:

I guess I am an old-timer. 50 years ago, well before today’s technology, farmers would bring samples of suspected diseased plants into the department of agriculture to be tested. Virus indexing was fairly simple back then. If a virus was suspected, a simple paper hole punch could be used to insert a portion of the sample into a susceptible plant to give results. This is something that a home gardener could do today. Yes, there are far more sophisticated methods used in today’s world, but the old methods can still be useful.

My university education in botany and horticulture are 50 years old; however I have put considerable effort into keeping current. Before I retired, my profession(s) required that I stay current (like an MD). Here in the U.S.A. university texts are available through our public library system. All the information I am stating can be found in university texts on the appropriate topic i.e. plant breeding, plant genetics, etc. There are also professional journals where scientists publish papers on these topics on a regular basis. In addition, there are frequent meetings, for example the meeting of the AGU (American Geophysical Union) in San Francisco each December, where scientists discuss a range of scientific topics (such as how climatic change is impacting managed and unmanaged ecosystems). Such things must certainly exist in the UK too.

Somehow in this discussion I believe that we might be conveying thoughts that can be seen differently from a different perspective. Something like Einstein’s Theory of Relativity. Maybe we are both correct based on our perspective? That is why I suggested that the readers of this thread look into the topic for themselves and come up with their own conclusions.

Anyway, I understand your skepticism, especially in today’s world of social media where there are so many bad actors and so much falsehood being propagated.

[Véronique Macrelle]

Mariette,
 thank you for your interesting photographs. here this Arum is growing slowly but reliably and it will be fun to see its descendants.
 the other one you sent me, Arum creticum, grows well in the ground, but I haven't seen any flowers from it yet...

Vinny and Robert: thank you for your interesting discussion: I studied biology, but this is the kind of question that comes to me every time I see a curiosity like this.
when i was a child, i caused the transformation of about a hundred ferocactus seedlings. to combat a problem of damping-off, my dad, a farmer, had given me a systemic fungicide (at a time when phyto-sanitary products were saving the world!).
 Each of these seedlings with just a few areoles received a micro-droplet (theoretically well diluted, but I was 12).
 a disaster: the micro-droplet had caused a mini-hole in each cactus:
they re-bubbled afterwards, but all as monstrosities, instead of the beautiful ball cacti they should have become. I gave them to those who liked them; out of a hundred or so, only 2 returned to their original shape a year later.
So: genetic mutation?
It just goes to show how harmful plant protection products can be...