Crocus October 2008

[Anthony Darby]

Karl, your pallasii has a very dark throat. I have not seen that before.

[Michael J Campbell]

Thanks for your comments and ID folks.

Cheers

[Martin Baxendale]

More Crocus
1 Outside of 9 from previous post
2 Crocus kotschyanus?
3 Crocus pulchellus?
4 & 5 Could you please identify

9, and also 2 and 3 in your second post are all pulchellus - no kotschyanus there. 4 &5 appears to have leaves up with the flowers and seems (accordiing to BM) to key out as serotinus. But I may be making a mistake in using his key - e.g. not sure from your photo if the throat is very pale yellow or not, and assuming those out of focus green bits are leaves, also the style...Tony? Thomas? Help!

[Martin Baxendale]

Thomas - OK I'm persuaded, though the suggestion of yellow is odd. I will have a wild form in flower in a few hours (for the first time) so I can compare. I've never had seed on the trade form - the anthers seem malformed - which might be consistent with it being a hybrid but if it is what are the parents?

My first thought on seeing Michael's pic was also medius. And I'd also like to know what Thomas thinks the parentage might be if the trade form of medius was a hybrid. You've mentioned that idea to me before, Thomas, and I meant to ask what your thoughts were about possible parents. 

[Martin Baxendale]

I remain dubious about identifying plants from photos.

I agree that giving IDs of flowers from photos alone can be problematic, especially with snowdrops! 

But I still feel it's good to have a stab at it, especially if an ID has been requested, and especially if the flower in question is very obviously wrongly named - and if the ID is accompanied by or stimulates discussion of the salient features, similarities, differences that aid ID then it's all educational and hopefully helps someone somewhere. Even if it does mean making stupid mistakes sometimes and having your head bitten off by the more knowledgeable and/or more observant/less stupid forumists. 

[Gerry Webster]

Crocus cartwrightianus ex CEH 613

This the plant whose pic I posted yesterday (reply 136). The second flower which emerged today shows multiplication of the floral elements. In structures with radial symmetry this phenomenon is not uncommon in both the plant & animal kingdoms. Although I’ve seen it in several species of crocus C. cartwrightianus seems particularly prone.

[Thomas Huber]

Thomas - OK I'm persuaded, though the suggestion of yellow is odd. I will have a wild form in flower in a few hours (for the first time) so I can compare. I've never had seed on the trade form - the anthers seem malformed - which might be consistent with it being a hybrid but if it is what are the parents?

My first thought on seeing Michael's pic was also medius. And I'd also like to know what Thomas thinks the parentage might be if the trade form of medius was a hybrid. You've mentioned that idea to me before, Thomas, and I meant to ask what your thoughts were about possible parents. 

Martin and Gerry, I'm still not sure about the other parent of the medius tradeform, the best (and only) suggestion is
Crocus longiflorus, which has also leaves present at flowering time. But longiflorus has a yellow throat, what the
medius tradeform has not.

Another possibility is, that the tradeform originates from a lowland plant of medius having leaves present at flowering time.
All the wild plants I've seen so far are from more than 1000 meter where no leaves are present until spring.

Perhaps Luit or one of our Dutch friends has a story about this curious plant.

[Luc Gilgemyn]

It's a truly marvelous C. cartwrightianus Gerry ! 

Beautiful !

[Gerry Webster]

I remain dubious about identifying plants from photos.

I agree that giving IDs of flowers from photos alone can be problematic, especially with snowdrops! 

Martin - Snowdrops are an unknown country to me. Fritillaries are probably the plants I have had most experience with & here even  plants in the flesh  can be difficult to identify.  I  wouldn't disagree that discussions about the ID of photographed plants can be educational. The  fact that I prefer living plants, a hand lens & a book (not to mention clay pots) is simply an indication of my age.

[Thomas Huber]

But a suggestion for an ID via photo can be of immense help, if you have no idea what your plant is!
After that you can still use your hand lense and book for 100% confirmation.

[art600]

Thomas

Could I have your expert  view of my Crocus where I asked for help in identification.

Thanks

Arthur

[Thomas Huber]

Thomas

Could I have your expert  view of my Crocus where I asked for help in identification.

Thanks

Arthur

Sorry, Art, I forgot - but Martin has already given the answer and I agree with him:
first posting no. 9 looks like pulchellus with the bright yellow throat and white anthers
second posting no 4+5 should be serotinus ssp salzmanii if the leaves are present (not obviously from the photo)

[Gerry Webster]

Thomas - it ought to be possible to find out something about the origin of trade C. medius by looking at old bulb catalogues. I would guess that there must be collections of these in Holland.

If the trade plant is a hybrid & C. longiflorus  is a parent it's not clear how it could have originated since the two species are widely separated geographically. In cultivation?

In a short account of a trip to Liguria  to look at C. medius (AGS Bull. vol 69, Sept 2001)  Alan Edwards notes that flowers become significantly smaller at the western end of its range, along the Franco-Italian border.  He speculates that this may be the source of the trade form, the early collectors preferring to work "close to the Riviera fleshpots".

[tonyg]

More Crocus
1 Outside of 9 from previous post
2 Crocus kotschyanus?
3 Crocus pulchellus?
4 & 5 Could you please identify

9, and also 2 and 3 in your second post are all pulchellus - no kotschyanus there. 4 &5 appears to have leaves up with the flowers and seems (accordiing to BM) to key out as serotinus. But I may be making a mistake in using his key - e.g. not sure from your photo if the throat is very pale yellow or not, and assuming those out of focus green bits are leaves, also the style...Tony? Thomas? Help!

100% agreement.  I have forms of serotinus which closely resemble the plant 4&5 (ssp salzmannii) which can flower with or without the leaves, the southern forms perhaps bsing more likely to flower leafless or almost so.

[Martin Baxendale]

Martin - Snowdrops are an unknown country to me. Fritillaries are probably the plants I have had most experience with & here even  plants in the flesh  can be difficult to identify.  I  wouldn't disagree that discussions about the ID of photographed plants can be educational. The  fact that I prefer living plants, a hand lens & a book (not to mention clay pots) is simply an indication of my age.

Although I don't grow many, I can well imagine the tortuous ID problems that occur with frits. ID-ing snowdrops can also sometimes be a bit of a ganble even with living plants in front of you. But I do agree, seeing a plant at first hand is infinitely preferable to a photo. What we really need on this forum is  a tele-transport button so we can whizz plants to one another instantaneously - would solve Lesley's problems with the NZ plant import restrictions too!