early narcissus

[Anthony Darby]

Very interesting. Looks very similar to a hybrid I received as hedraeanthus from CGF, but flowering two months earlier.

[Maggi Young]

I think Ian described this (veritable mouthful of a name) on our list as being "how we received it"..... that is, we had it originally with this name from a very reputable source....when queried, the answer came that yes, it was "right".........

[Gerry Webster]

Thanks for the correction Gerry I've just amended my file titles and feel quite worn out now   I think I read somewhere that in N b ssp. p p (I'm not typing all that lot again) the stamen is NOT exserted (which I take to mean 'sticking out of the flower?) whilst it is exserted on my flower. Does John Blanchard mention this at all please?

David - I noticed the exserted anthers on your plant & initially thought I should refer to this,  but - according to Blanchard's description of  the form he grows -  "The anthers are included in young flowers, but grow as the flowers age and sometimes become just exserted." Only you know how old your flowers are.

[David Nicholson]

Thanks Maggi, but it's very pretty in any case. Do you still grow it, it will be interesting to compare when yours flowers?

Gerry thanks again. The flower opened in the last couple of days.

[Maggi Young]

Yes, David, though it'll be a while before it's out .

[Gerdk]

The exserted anthers and a stem held of an angle of 45 degrees to the ground are typical N. hedraeanthus - fashion.
The flowering time is different! Maybe an early hedraeanthus or a hybrid with that species.

Gerd

[David Nicholson]

Mmmm. thanks Gerd.

[David Nicholson]

Gerd I've done a little research and it seems that one of the characteristics of Narcissus hedraeanthus is that the leaves are narrow and twisting and almost prostrate-I have a pot of haedraeanthus with leaves showing and they check out in those respects. The leaves on my plant are much narrower and upright.

[Jim McKenney]

Re Narcissus 'Nylon,' I'm not too sure whether it should be 'Nylon' which is a cultivar name and implies a single clone, so every one identical,

I don't think cultivar names really imply clones: think of all the vegetable cultivars grown from seed as annuals.

Also, the components of a clone are not necessarily identical, certainly not for horticultural purposes.

See reply 50 here: http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2644.45

[Gerry Webster]

Re Narcissus 'Nylon,' I'm not too sure whether it should be 'Nylon' which is a cultivar name and implies a single clone, so every one identical,

I don't think cultivar names really imply clones: think of all the vegetable cultivars grown from seed as annuals.

Jim - I agree with this. I think a cultivar raised from seed would strictly be described as a strain

Also, the components of a clone are not necessarily identical, certainly not for horticultural purposes.

See reply 50 here: http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2644.45

I'm not sure I agree with this. A clone (in the plant world) is conventionally regarded as a group of individuals derived from a single individual by vegetative propagation. Consequently, and barring somatic mutation, all these individuals are alike and will be identical with the original, given the same conditions of cultivation. I think 'identical' here is used  in the everyday  sense that we speak of two things as being identical & not in some esoteric sense.

[Ian Y]

David to clear up or perhaps add to the confusion over the wee plant with the long name

N bulbocodium subsp.  praecox var. paucinervis

.
When I got it many years ago from a very well known grower I queried the name but was told that it was correct.
I do not believe it - I think it is a form or hybrid of N. romieuxii and suspect that a seedling has got into the original growers stock which has died out being replaced with this very pretty wee Narcissus. I have shown how easily this can and does happen often in the Bulb Log.

Jim and Gerry, under the rules a clone has to be identical or within 10% (however you work that out) of the originally named plant so should only really be applied to vegetable cultivars.
However I do know that often a group of seedlings are so similar that they have been give a cultivar name and I seem to remember reading that the name Narcisss 'Nylon' was given to a pot of seedlings that were distributed so there will be some variation.

We are not allowed to use the term 'strain' any more, crazy as that is the term we have all used, I believe we are supposed to call it a 'line' now. I must admit that I still prefer strain.

[Gerdk]

Gerd I've done a little research and it seems that one of the characteristics of Narcissus hedraeanthus is that the leaves are narrow and twisting and almost prostrate-I have a pot of haedraeanthus with leaves showing and they check out in those respects. The leaves on my plant are much narrower and upright.

David,
I must confess I forgot  what kind of leaves this species has. So I went outside (soo cold and rainy) and made some pics. I noticed that my N. hedraeanthus from different locations have erect leaves. Please have a look at the following pics.
It seems there is some variation concerning the habit of the leaves with this species. Also there is N. hedraeanthus ssp. luteolentus which has a more erect stem and larger flowers than the 'typical' form found in the Sierra de Cazorla for instance.
Nevertheless your plant might be of hybrid origin, but according the orientation of the flower stalk with hedraeanthus background.
On this occasion I add pics of two other daffodils.

1. Narcissus hedraeanthus/Cazorla - today
2. Narcissus hedraeanthus/white selection - today
3. Narcissus hedraeanthus ssp. luteolentus from January 2008
4.+5. Narcissus cantabricus - petunioid form from Jebel Tazzeka, Morocco -today
6.+7. Narcissus romieuxii from Morocco - this time with very small flowers
         and with a snail - and grey mould at the stamina
         - which I never had seen without making pics here ! - today

Gerd

[Gerry Webster]

Jim and Gerry, under the rules a clone has to be identical or within 10% (however you work that out) of the originally named plant so should only really be applied to vegetable cultivars.
However I do know that often a group of seedlings are so similar that they have been give a cultivar name and I seem to remember reading that the name Narcisss 'Nylon' was given to a pot of seedlings that were distributed so there will be some variation.

We are not allowed to use the term 'strain' any more, crazy as that is the term we have all used, I believe we are supposed to call it a 'line' now. I must admit that I still prefer strain.

Ian - Thanks for the comments.

The  term ‘strain’  used to be applied  to the set of  descendants produced (by whatever means) from a common ancestor that shared a uniform morphological or physiological character. I was unaware that it is not a  formally recognised term.

I’m puzzled by your reference to ‘vegetables’. Was this a typo? And I can't make much sense of '10%'.

With regard to the plants which are the subject of this thread. ‘Nylon’ has been discussed in earlier posts. It is not the name of a clone but of a Group. As such, if I understand the code correctly, it can also be a cultivar name.

‘Julia Jane’ merits some discussion. The name was bestowed by Jim Archibald on a very distinct selection from his collection JCA805. Hence, the name (as a clonal name) can only be correctly applied to plants which have been vegetatively derived from the original selection.   Currently, plants under the name ‘Julia Jane’ are widely available in the trade & they seem to vary considerably. I suspect most of them are seed raised & consequently are not entitled to the name.  I suppose they could be referred to as ‘The Julia Jane strain (or line)’, though I don’t know whether there are any rules about this. In any case I think it would be misleading.

I have the impression that the situation with regard to ‘Joy Bishop’ is similar.

As regards ‘Atlas Gold’ &  ‘Treble Chance’, I believe these cultivar names are the names of clones & at least the plants  distributed by the originating nursery, Pottertons, seem to be the real thing.

[Maggi Young]

Vegetable cultivars  is just that.... cultivar names of turnips, potatoes, courgettes, etc.


10% refers to the requirement that all details e.g.  colour, measurements of stamen length etc, be "identical" or within  a 10% range  of the measurements of the original..... does that help? Not sure if it is defined as to whetherit is 10% plus or minus or 5% either way.... making a 10% toal.... frankly, I doubt whether the ones who made these rules were clear in themselves as to those details! 


The problem with "group" names is that, for whatever reason be it  ease of use or laziness, the full appellation "Nylon Group" is seldom used, leading to continued confusion

[Gerry Webster]

Vegetable cultivars  is just that.... cultivar names of turnips, potatoes, courgettes, etc.

Now I'm totally confused. Does this mean that only vegetables can be clonal.

Incidentally,  the Botanical Code is freely available online but one has to buy the Code for Cultivated Plants. There's some sort of lesson there.