Crocus November 2008

[tonyg]

More interesting comments re Crocus goulimyi subsp/var leucanthus.  Thanks especially to Dr Dave for the wild population observations.  I don't especially like splitting plants into subsp on colour alone.  So many crocus have albino forms that this distinction is usually meaningless.  However where the populations in a distinct area are uniformly white it is easier to justify the split.  But in gardens and with plants grown from cultivated seed how can these two plants be distinguished?  Some C goulmiyi goulimyi are very pale or bicolored and white forms have arisen in cultivation.  The truth is that without knowing the wild origins of a white/pale lilac plant it is not possible to distinguish between the two supposed subspecies.  I prefer varietal status for this reason.
Aaah ... you may say "what about Crocus vernus subspecies albiflorus?"  Well that one is distinct by its high altitude habitats and it is often lilac or striped in colour.  But even here it can be different to determine in cultivated specimens.
It would be boring if it was all straightforward!!   

[Diane Clement]

Crocus vernus subspecies albiflorus  ... is often lilac ...  It would be boring if it was all straightforward!! 

In my innocence, I though albiflorus meant white flowers       it could never be boring!

My C goulimyi leucanthus do have a tinge of lilac, but is "Mani White" a pure white clone

[Gerry Webster]

Dave - My apologies. I became so preoccupied with the taxonomic questions that I forgot to say how much I enjoyed your pics of the plants near Monemvasia. One of the pleasures of this forum is seeing virtually plants in the wild that one will never see in reality.

[tonyg]

My C goulimyi leucanthus do have a tinge of lilac, but is "Mani White" a pure white clone

Yes Mani White is a white clone (of 'ssp' goulimyi) although when viewed adjacent to C goulimyi leucanthus it looks a little creamy.

Here are a few crocus photographed on the odd sunny day in the last couple of weeks.

Crocus laevigatus - white form
Crocus laevigatus - seedlin from the previous form.  Note the big dark blotch on the outer petals suggesting a intra-specific hybrid with another form of C laevigatus
Crocus laevigatus seedling mix
Crocus oreocreticus
Crocus thomasii - 2 forms.  The very wide open one was 'forced' indoors, they do not usually open so flat here.
Crocus speciosus -from Armenia but with a yellow throat and creamy anthers suggesting hybrid with C pulchellus.  Note also the pale golden wash on the outer petals.  Zhirair - are you watching this?  Can you advise.
And lastly the two white C goulimyi
First are 2nd generation seedlings of C goulimyi Mani White.
Second is C goulimyi leucanthus from wild collected seed.

[Gerry Webster]

And lastly the two white C goulimyi
First are 2nd generation seedlings of C goulimyi Mani White.
Second is C goulimyi leucanthus from wild collected seed.

Tony - the last plant looks distinctly bicoloured in the photo & very like a plant I had from Kath Dryden as C. goulimyi leucanthus. Dave comments above that he saw no bicoloured forms near Monemvasia. Where was your  seed from?

[tonyg]

The plants illustrated came from seed collected by Steve Keeble in 2000.  The collection came with a KKK number, the K's for three places beginning with K not 3 Keebles!  You may be able to help with where these places are as right now the information eludes me.

[art600]

The following are pictures taken at the classic Goulimyi var leucantha site in 2005, plus a shot from the .Monument ' site near Areopolis of Goulimyi ssp goulimyi for comparison.  I will post shots from this year later as I have yet to download from the camera.

This year there were fewer bicolours at Foutia, indeed I would say that the Crocus were in danger of being outnumbered by the Cyclamen - they put on a fantastic scented display.

[tonyg]

The following are pictures taken at the classic Goulimyi var leucantha site in 2005, plus a shot from the .Monument ' site near Areopolis of Goulimyi ssp goulimyi for comparison.  I will post shots from this year later as I have yet to download from the camera.

This year there were fewer bicolours at Foutia, indeed I would say that the Crocus were in danger of being outnumbered by the Cyclamen - they put on a fantastic scented display.

Now that raises an important question.  Are the apparently all white populations really all white or are there lilac and bicolored plants which flower at slightly different times?  Does what you see depend on when you are there?  Clearly from Arts records there are quite strongly lilac flowered plants among some populations of C goulimyi leucanthus which further blurs the distinction between the two putative subspecies.

[Gerry Webster]

Tony - Sorry I have no relevant info. The only seed  ex Steve Keeble  I  have had came from Jim Archibald's cultivated plants in 1999. I assume it was derived from  SK's 1992  collection. It produced only all-white plants as Jim Archibald states in his list.

[dominique]

I had corms way back in the 60s as Crocus speciosus `Cassiope.' It was imported from Van Tubergens and was a soft blue, heavily veined darker. Haven't got it now.

Hi Lesley
I have C.speciosus 'Cassiope'. If you want, i will be able to send you some seeds
next year in summer (I believe that you cannot receive bulbills ?!)
Dom

[HClase]

Gerry,

I agree, my use of the word "cannot" was too strong.  However, there has to be some morphological distinction too.  Your example of dandelions was a bad one, by the way, Taraxicum officinale is apomictic and doesn't exchange its genes with anything - hence its success!

As far as the ultimate authority on naming is concerned I think it's something botanical rather than a seed list.  But they are changing their minds all the time!   I think it's not incorrect to use an unfashionable name as long as the full attribution of authority and date are given, but how cumbersome is that?  I think when we are being gardeners what matters most is that our fellow gardeners know what we are talking about - if we are being botanists then it's a different matter, but this is a gardener's forum.

[Gerry Webster]

Howard - Thanks. I stand corrected, careless of me. Choose some other plant or dandelions from non-apomictic populations (which I believe exist).

[tonyg]

I think when we are being gardeners what matters most is that our fellow gardeners know what we are talking about - if we are being botanists then it's a different matter, but this is a gardener's forum.

I'll second that opinion although I am always glad when someone more knowledgeable can increase my botanical understanding.

[Andrew]

Crocus biflorus ssp melantherus

BD and I second that, for what it's worth! I do see what Armin gets his aleppicus suggestion from, though..... orange throat and lovely outer veining......it'd be good to see the inside when it opens on the next sunny day!! 

There's no pulling the wool over your eyes ! Have you seen them in the 'wild' Tony ?

The sun was out today so here is a better shot of the outside,



and the inside.

[tonyg]

No - not seen it in the wild - yet!  When shall we go?
I have seen a form with similar markings and at this time of year I had no other suggestions.