Crocuses in December - 2008

[Lesley Cox]

But do his cyprius have those dark markings?  I for some reason thought that cyprius normally wasn't dark on the outside like that... sounds like I am thinking of something else?

The one Marcus sent to me certainly did. It was a treasure.

[Tony Willis]

Mine are all grown in small clay pots plunged in sand on a bench in the greenhouse. The four I showed are all early to flower. A lot of others are coming through and it is a bit of a strange season in that some of each species are at a different stage to others. We need some cold to slow them down.

[Oron Peri]

Thanks Tony,
Can you tell the temperature level [day&night] in your greenhouse during winter?

[Janis Ruksans]

Crocus cyprius I'm growing only in greenhouse (unheated) but covered with 2 layers of long-lasting polyethylene (my first greenhouse now are staying 12 years and still useful). Here certainly impossible outside. In January synoptics offer over all Europe minus 25 C. But in my greenhouse they withstood even minus 30 in February.

Crocus tauricus was described by Latvian botanist Puring working in Crimea I suppose that at end of XIX century (I'm not certain about date). Brian included it under C. biflorus adamii, but he is not right in this case. At personal communication he explained that he saw only herbarium specimens. So - one feature you noted - it is very special tooth on basal ring edge. I don't know any other with such and I saw most of biflorus crocuses (very few new taxa only not). On picture you can see two other features - first - color of flowers - very special blue shade but it is very variable from almost pure white to unstriped violet but allways keeping the special shade characteristic only to this species. The second is leaf color - they are bluish-grayish-green. Such leaves has only one another biflorus group crocus - I think, that alexandrii (but possibly I'm wrong, I haven't here papers to check). In any case difference is far greater than between pulchricolor and taurii. If we separate wattiorum and nerimaniae from other biflorus complex, then tauricus is worth of independent name, too (or at least as subsp. of biflorus, although I personally don't like this merging of most annulate crocuses under chap of biflorus).

YALTA - was distributed earlier only by me and allways as C. tommasinianus x. On wholesale scale it is now grown only by Jan Pennings in Breezand. He is growing several of my Crocus, Muscari, Tulipa species hybrids etc. on large scale.
Janis

[Janis Ruksans]

I'm using some break in work with my new catalogue to explain some information from earlier discussions on Forum this year. There was long discussion about two crocuses - Crocus gargaricus and herbertii.
You all are right - both are inseparable looking only on flower. Possibly gargaricus has a bit larger and deeper orange flowers than herbertii but such feature isn't usable for separating taxa.
But when you will compare corms of both, you immediately will see the differences. And they are not only in stoloniferous habit of herbertii (see attached picture made on Ulu-Dag this spring) and non-stoloniferous of gargaricus. Corms of Crocus gargaricus (Kaz-dag) are larger in size and coarsely reticulated. Those of herbertii (Ulu-dag) are much smaller, makes a lot of stolones forming at end very small grains (they need only 1 year to grow up to flowering size, rarely two) and most important - tunics are finely fibrous reticulated only at top. Soon must be publication from Brian Mathew about this marvellous Crocus.
I like both of them, although herbertii is hardier, can grow outside without replanting for many years and spreads in garden even without special attention (in nursery can be even pleasant "weed" although not easy for business just for small size of corms). Gargaricus I tried only under cover.

Janis

[Ian Y]

Janis

Very interesting what you say about Crocus gargaricus sub species, I have grown Crocus gargaricus ssp herbertii for years as you say it wanders gently around the garden beds - I have never managed to get hold of ssp. gargaricus.

I have recently read a new phylogeny of Crocus which shows that the two so called sub species of Crocus gargaricus are not at all closely related showing the closest relatives to ssp herberti being C. leichtlinii and C. kerndorffiorum while ssp gargaricus is related to C. speciosus, cancelleatus and angustiflolius among others.

Quite fascinating to see how most of the work Brian Mathew and others have done holds up very well and is reinforced by this modern study with only a few very unexpected relationships like the one Janis has shown above.

[Janis Ruksans]

Ian,
It only confirms how difficult is seperating of species. I'm absolutely sure that under name Crocus chrysanthus are hided several species, too. Look on chromosome numbers only. So much discused USCHAK ORANGE I suppose is the single one with only 2n=8. But how you can verify your plants without checking of chromosomes - it isn't possible for amateur gardener.
Janis

[Gerry Webster]

I have recently read a new phylogeny of Crocus which shows that the two so called sub species of Crocus gargaricus are not at all closely related showing the closest relatives to ssp herberti being C. leichtlinii and C. kerndorffiorum while ssp gargaricus is related to C. speciosus, cancelleatus and angustiflolius among others.

Ian - it would be very useful if you could give a reference for this. Many thanks.

[Ian Y]

Ian - it would be very useful if you could give a reference for this. Many thanks.

A phylogeny of the genus Crocus (Iridaceae) based on the sequence data from five plastid regions.
Gitte Petersen, Ole Seberg, Sara Thorsoe, Tina Jorgensen & Brian Mathew.

Published In TAXON 57 (2)
Publisher: International Association for Plant Taxonomy



http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/iapt/tax/2008/00000057/00000002/art00010

[Tony Willis]

Ian I can let you have ssp gargaricus if you want it.

Oron I have two greenhouses for crocus,one in shade and one in the open. During the winter we do not usually get lower than -5 and then not before January and it only lasts a few days. This year however we had two weeks at freezing or just below at the end of November/early December.Usually it is dull and cloudy and many crocus pop up and fall over without opening. Maximum temperature is different. On a sunny day in January the temperature in the house in the sun can reach 30c easily and one January at 2pm was 38c and at 5.30 when the sun went in had fallen to -3c.Not easy for the plants

[Gerry Webster]

Ian - many thanks for the reference.
Gerry

[Janis Ruksans]

Crocus tauricus was described by Latvian botanist Puring working in Crimea I suppose that at end of XIX century (I'm not certain about date).


Original description made by

Crocus biflorus var. tauricus Trautv., Bull. Cl. Phys.-Math. Acad. Imp. Sci. Saint-Pétersbourg 17: 329 (1859).

Later altered in range by Puring

Crocus tauricus (Trautv.) Puring, Trudy Bot. Sada Imp. Yur'evsk. Univ. 1: 194 (1900).

Sincerely
Janis
 

 

[Anthony Darby]

Here's a link to what I have as Crocus korolkowii 'Mountains Glory', but perhaps should be 'Mountain Glory'. If it splits I will try some in the garden. http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.paghat.com/images/crocosmountain_midjan.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.paghat.com/crocusmountainsglory.html&usg=__EPdEM4CJOkimBZbbzs5h6zeY0PI=&h=325&w=266&sz=20&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=dgRIAhNKqj2GcM:&tbnh=118&tbnw=97&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcrocus%2Bkorolkowii%2Bmountains%2Bglory%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG

[Armin]

Janis,
thank you for you honest answer regarding C. cyprius cultivation. Remaining a bid sad, I will refrain from trying it in my open garden.

Thanks for the background info on C.tauricus and the marvellous pictures. They show nice markings and color variation within the species.
Is it/will it be available sonner or later for us croconuts to purchase? 

Finally thanks regarding notes on "Yalta". I'm exited to compare both forms in spring.

Ian,
the taxonomical obscurities / difficulties in determing of species in genus "crocus" remains a thrilling issue. Thanks for the link.

Anthony,
the KAVB list them as "Mountains Glory". Registrant J.R.

[Anthony Darby]

Anthony,
the KAVB list them as "Mountains Glory". Registrant J.R.

Thanks Armin. That means I don't have to change the label.