Photos of Irish Snowdrops needed

[Martin Baxendale]

I suppose both Martin important and experienced. If Galanthus 'XYZ' is about to be passed around it will go to for example to Matt Bishop and not me but I did get something that I will show next year

Then can you explain to me, Mark, in what way you consider these "important people" in the snowdrop world to be more "important" than the rest of us, other than in the sense of being the most experienced and knowledgeable, and therefore safest, hands into which new snowdrops can be entrusted? I am seriously interested to know your thinking on this because it's not the first time you've mentioned on the forum "important people" in this context and I find it odd. I'm trying not to leap to conclusions here. The second part of your post, above, I'm still trying to get my head around.   

[mark smyth]

Everyone just forget I made any comments. I have removed my thoughts from the forum

[steve owen]

There's another angle to the issue of snowdrop varieties in restricted circulation. The first edition of "The Book" came out several years ago. Yet a large number of the varieties listed in it still cannot be found. There are plenty of examples that are not exotic newcomers like Flocon de Neige; for example Beth Chatto,  Doncasters Double Charmer, Remember Remember, Deer Slot, Big Boy. 

There can only be two reasons for this;
a) those few who have a variety are tending to keep it to themselves, or
b) the twinscalers who I understand can take chips of a bulb of great rarity to flowering-size in three years are for some reason not able to satisfy the demand.

That's why the tiny handful of growers who do propagate hard to find varieties are able to command such high prices on eg Ebay (something that contributors have been huffing and puffing about here.) I have seen big clumps of certain Galanthus varieties that are blood-rare growing in gardens. The real issue surely isn't over a strategy for gettting rare varieties into the hands of people who can preserve them, its what happens after that.

Hope this isn't irritating any readers, and can I support Mark (no relation!) whose posts to my mind demonstrate that he belongs to the "open" tendency and not the keep it to myself one.

[Tony Willis]

Mark I certainly did not want to offend with my comments but will add to my previous one with how do you know if somebody is a'good grower' if they never get anything good to grow?

Over many years I have been the recipient of some super plants given freely and on many occasions quickly killed. I think I can also say I have passed quite a few on when it has been clear they were not going to succeed with me.

It is still better to visit a friend and see a good plant you could not grow looking wonderful than have an empty pot of your own.

[johnw]

Steve - There is also a third reason: the snowdrop is miffy.

In the early 90's I was given Rosemary Burnham by the late Don Armstrong who asked me to get it around.

In those days I knew few snowies so I had to figure out who to send it to initially and this was no easy matter.

I settled on these criteria:

Would cherish the plant
Who could grow it
Who would propagate it
Were generous and would pass it around
Were in diverse locations
Had a prominent garden where it would be shown off to others and gain some notoriety

I was able to send it to:

Louise Voikins at Foxgrove who had a magnificent display of Snowdrops at the RHS Feb Show in 1996 and helped me to expand my collection and was an obvious propagator.
Jack Eliot
Helen Dillon - lost to insect
Stella Tracey in Devon + a backup later after a loss
John Grimshaw to compare with Francisca Darts (syn) before The Book + a backup later after a loss
Jim Waddick in Kansas
Nancy Goodwin at Montrose
a galanthophile in Denmark
a galanthophile in Germany
others whose names escape me tonight

Those were the important people I thought should get them first; all, no more of less, distinguished than our forumists.

Pam Frost in Vancouver has sent it over to the UK as well to many people.

Many of these folks have had problems with Rosemary Burnham and sadly we seem no further ahead today than we were back in 1996. It has gained notoriety on its own.  My lusty clump was ready for another round of mailings to people who simply requested it when it was hit by narcissus bulb fly despite treatment. I was down to one bulb last spring.  Pam's RB is down to a few bulbs due to generosity.  The snowies in BC have but a few bulbs.

I am now going to twin scale it next June and hope to be able to send it to some Galanthophiles on this forum when ready; too bad I didn't know about all the snowies in this group years ago.

If someone knows any of the recipients it would be interesting to follow-up on RB's fate.

Neither Pam or I accepted money for any snowdrops sent.

So getting a snowdrop around is not always a straight forward matter.

johnw - +12c this am in the south, +1c tonight.

[Paddy Tobin]

With the newer and rarer snowdrops there is bound to be a period where people know of them and wish to have them. Commercial considerations may govern the release of some snowdrops - better prices will be obtained if the supply is curtailed and controlled. Other times snowdrops might not have entered into the commercial arena at all and remain in private hands and I think it is this situation which is under discussion above. Quite simply, if a snowdrop is in private hands the owner has every right to do with it as s/he wishes. However, it is common practice - as John has illustrated in his account of G. 'Rosemary Burnham' - to spread plants around so as to safeguard the future of the particular snowdrop and in the long run this is probably the best approach.

The issue which was raised is that these snowdrops are only distributed to "important" people and it was this choice of words which seemed to rankle with people. It seems to me that what has not been said is that people will share their snowdrops first and foremost with friends, people who share their interest in snowdrops, who have experience of growing snowdrops and in whose hands the snowdrops have a good chance of growing successfully. John listed people to whom he distributed G. 'Rosemary Burnham' and I would guess he choose these people not simply on their reputation but because he knew them, was friends with them and felt assured the snowdrop would be safe in their hands. In that sense they were important people to John; they were his friends with an interest in snowdrops and people who would assure the future of G.'Rosemary Burnham'.

By the way, John, did you know that there is a snowdrop here in Ireland which arose in Helen Dillon's garden? It is a variant on G. nivalis which Helen refers to as her "good one". I have seen it under various labels referring to Helen or to her garden address. Helen would be the first to admit that it is not particularly spectacular but it is special to her. She gave me a nice clump some years ago and I treasure it for its connection to Helen and I label it "Helen's Good One" in my garden. Have you got it? If not, I can send on some later in the year.

By the way, Helen has more or less given up growing snowdrops as she found she was losing more and more of them to pest and disease. Those she gave me have shown perfect health, I am delighted to report.

Paddy

[Brian Ellis]

Most excellently put Paddy, I would also say (I don't think it was mentioned above) that some snowdrops do not easily respond to twinscaling, and you have to wait a long time for them to bulk up otherwise.

[Martin Baxendale]

I don't want to prolong this discussion, but my point about the use of "important people" by Mark was simply an egalitarian one. I don't like snobbery or forelock tugging, and I just feel that the repeated use of phrases like "important people" and "inner circle" by Mark in posts about snowdrop growing, unless used ironically, is not helpful.

From long experience of the snowdrop world, going back to the 1960s, I know historically there used to be, on the part of at least some people, some snobbery and exclusivity about who were the "right kind of people" to allow into their circles and allow to have the rarest snowdrops; not amongst all snowdrop growers of course (and I knew some, now dead, who hated that sort of attitude, even though they came from the "right sort" of background to fit in themselves).

Whether that is still the case in some circles I can't say as I don't get out much these days.      But I would hope that we have moved on at least to some extent from those days when who you were and who you knew was sometimes more important to some people than how keen or experienced you were, and how much you could contribute.

I didn't mean to upset Mark and hope he won't remove his thoughts entirely from the forum. We're all entitled to express our views and opinions, and equally entitled to object to others' views and opinions. I think it keeps the discussions lively.

[Paddy Tobin]

Martin,

In line with your comments above, I recall an incident where a member of a local garden club here who always wanted to have the rarest plants in his garden went to a local garden centre and asked for such a plant only to be told that he couldn't have it as the proprietor thought his garden wasn't ready for it yet!

Of course, there will be some snobbery and one-up-manship among snowdrop growers as there is in many other areas of life but that's the way some people are. Laugh at them and their silliness.

Paddy

[ashley]

Ashley, any interesting snowdrops down Cork way?

Paddy

Unfortunately I'm not in 'the know' Paddy but will certainly ask around.  Wol Staines' talk at the A/HPS meeting in January should presumably flush out the local galanthophiles.

[Tony Willis]

From long experience of the snowdrop world, going back to the 1960s, I know historically there used to be, on the part of at least some people, some snobbery and exclusivity about who were the "right kind of people" to allow into their circles and allow to have the rarest snowdrops; not amongst all snowdrop growers of course (and I knew some, now dead, who hated that sort of attitude, even though they came from the "right sort" of background to fit in themselves).

You need not worry Martin it is still alive and kicking. I have a very dear friend who looks forward to receiving the invitations to 'exclusive Snowdrop Lunches ' each year. I salivate on the sidelines (about the food not the snowdrops) as they are descibed to me.

[Paddy Tobin]

I mentioned G. 'Lady Moore' earlier and here is a picture of it. Unfortunately, it was the only remaining flower on a clump I received earlier in the year and the petals, particularly the one on the right, are in poor condition but I hope it will give you some idea of what it looks like.

Paddy

[Martin Baxendale]

You need not worry Martin it is still alive and kicking. I have a very dear friend who looks forward to receiving the invitations to 'exclusive Snowdrop Lunches ' each year. I salivate on the sidelines (about the food not the snowdrops) as they are descibed to me.

I know the feeling, Tony. I don't tend to get many such invites myself, and I hear the food is often very good. And I do know that, generally speaking, these days people tend to be invited to private snowdrop lunches on the basis of their knowledge, experience or just very keen interest (or because they are close snowdrop-growng friends of the host) rather than because they are the "right sort of person" by dint of background, breeding etc. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone in the snowdrop world today. I just wouldn't like to see things sliding back to the sort of snobbish attitudes I know were displayed by some in the middle of the last century. History repeats itself easily enough without any help from us, and I'd prefer to see the gardening and snowrop growing worlds continue to be an increasingly egalitarian community of likeminded people. Dear God, could I sound more pompous? Shut up, Baxendale.

[Anthony Darby]

Snowdrop lunches? How do you cook them?

[Maggi Young]

I know historically there used to be, on the part of at least some people, some snobbery and exclusivity about who were the "right kind of people" to allow into their circles

Well, of course: witness the snobbery that surrounded the growing of Auriculas.........and it would be naive to think that such prejudices are entirely gone from the horticultural world today but most of us.... and here the SRGC is a shining example.....abhor such behaviour and do all we can to break it down.
I think it is still the case, however, that on the entry sheet for the RHS plant award meetings, there is still space for the "gardener" to be named.... a throwback to the time when the "gentry" were entering the plants grown on their behalf by their employee....and who would not themselves know very much about the plant at all, in most cases!