Narcissus January- February 2009

[Rafa]

Beautiful N. cantabricus Diane, it is quite difficoult to me to specified a particular subsp. just with a picture, but  Narcissus cantabricus recordered there are Narcissus cantabricus.


I think Narcissus cantabricus subsp. monophyllus is a Moroccan plant, acctually Narcissus foliosus

≡ Narcissus monophyllus var. foliosus Maire, Bull. Soc. Hist. Nat. Afrique N. 20(1): 38, nº
556 (1929)
≡ Narcissus Bulbocodium subsp. monophyllus (Durieu) Maire var. foliosus Maire in Jahand.
& Maire, Cat. pl. Maroc 1: 139 (1931)
≡ Narcissus cantabricus subsp. cantabricus var. foliosus (Maire) A. Fernandes; Kew Bull.

It is very close to Narcissus cantabricus, but with some diferences:

1. N. foliosus has bigger bulbs with brown tunics (N. cantabricus black tunics).
2. N. foliosus has several leaves per bulb and N. cantabricus just one.
3. N. foliosus has rigid and erect leaves, and wider than N. cantabricus.
4. N. foliosus in the flower there is not an angle between corona and tube so visible than in N. cantabricus.
5. N. foliosus is indifferent edafic and N. cantabricus is strict silicicola (I am not very agree with this).

[Maggi Young]

N. foliosus is indifferent edafic ( edaphic)  and N. cantabricus is strict silicicola (I am not very agree with this).

Rafa, I understand this to mean that N. foliosus has no strict soil requirements and N. cantabricus  grows specifically on sandy solis..... can you explain a little your disagreements with that?

[Rafa]

Yes, I mean, in the nature Narcissus foliosus grows in every type of soil and Narcissus cantabricus just in silice, but I saw also N. cantabricus growing in limestone. Aslo in Málaga there are many locations growing in limestone, but certenly most of locations are in silice.

[Diane Clement]

Beautiful N. cantabricus Diane, it is quite difficoult to me to specified a particular subsp. just with a picture, but  Narcissus cantabricus recordered there are Narcissus cantabricus.  I think Narcissus cantabricus subsp. monophyllus is a Moroccan plant, acctually Narcissus foliosus   

Thanks Rafa (these plants were growing in a limestone area near El Chorro). 
I find the nomenclature of these narcissus very confusing.  Kew monocot database lists N foliosus and N cantabricus foliosus both as valid (therefore different) taxa. 

[DaveM]

Wonderful picture Diane
N cantabricus subsp monophyllus does also grow in mainland Spain. I saw this a few years ago growing on schist at Puerto de la Virgin in the Sierra de los Filabres, Almeria. This is one of the localities for this ssp recorded in John Blanchard's book. They were very abundant indeed, quite a fabulous sight. I don't know what the geology is for the occurrences in Morocco, though I'm afraid.

[Rafa]

El Chorro! of course, this is one of most famous place.

I follow spanish taxonomist, and think there is a non comunication between spanis taxonomists and KEW/RHS, because there are many not valid species for us which are still valid in thoses classifications. For example, N. calcicarpetanus, N. lagoi, N. juressianus and many others are not valid. Also there are many others new names like N. cantabricus subsp. monophyllus= N. foliosus, N. bulbocodium subsp. quintanilhae= N. quintanilhae, N. perez-chiscanoi = N. hispanicus subsp. perez-chiscanoi, N.x susannae = N.x litigiosus...etc

Very VERY confusing also to me

[Rafa]

Thank you for this info Dave, many Morrocan plants are growing in the south of Spain, very interesting, I didn't know this. I will ask my botanist friends.

[Lesley Cox]

Your white is quite stunning Diane. No matter how many I grow (lots) from what source, seed or bought or gifted, and no matter what names are on them, mine ALWAYS turn out to have some yellow in the colour. I've never had a pure white like that. It is truly beautiful.

[Gerry Webster]

Your white is quite stunning Diane. No matter how many I grow (lots) from what source, seed or bought or gifted, and no matter what names are on them, mine ALWAYS turn out to have some yellow in the colour. I've never had a pure white like that. It is truly beautiful.

Lesley - try 'Rare Plants', N. cantabricus 'Antiquera' (sic). It is pure, sparkling white - lovely. If I can get a decent photo I will post it but my camera seems to have difficulty in auto-focusing on pure white flowers.

[Lesley Cox]

I would LOVE to try Rare Plants but we can't import from him. The costs are huge and he would have to do heaps of in growth inspections etc 6 months before export in order to satisfy MAF and... and... and...
Besides he refused to export to NZ some years ago because MAF wouldn't accept that tubers of Arisaema were dormant, because of the prominent point (which eventually opens to send forth the stem shoot.)

[Gerry Webster]

I would LOVE to try Rare Plants but we can't import from him. The costs are huge and he would have to do heaps of in growth inspections etc 6 months before export in order to satisfy MAF and... and... and...
Besides he refused to export to NZ some years ago because MAF wouldn't accept that tubers of Arisaema were dormant, because of the prominent point (which eventually opens to send forth the stem shoot.)

Sorry Lesley, I should have thought of this given previous posts mentioning MAF restrictions. Surely someone in the SH grows a pure white N.cantabricus? JJA seeds 699.810 & 699.845 are described as "pure white" & "icy sparkling white" respectively.

[Rafa]

Wonderful picture Diane
N cantabricus subsp monophyllus does also grow in mainland Spain. I saw this a few years ago growing on schist at Puerto de la Virgin in the Sierra de los Filabres, Almeria. This is one of the localities for this ssp recorded in John Blanchard's book. They were very abundant indeed, quite a fabulous sight. I don't know what the geology is for the occurrences in Morocco, though I'm afraid.

Dave, I revised some papers and this location from Sierra de los Filabres has been studied many times in Spain, it is a pure N. cantabricus.

Narcissus foliosus is just recordered in Dar Chaouia and Settat, Morocco. As you know, Narcissus cantabricus has one leave per bulb, but usually several bulbs have the same tunic, and it could give the impression that it has many leaves, but they are different bulbs, maybe this is the confusion.

About the reason of why it grows in limetone soil, N. cantabricus is acidofilus plant, but not in excess. It is quite difficult for me to explain in English the reason why it could grow in limestone places but I'll try. N. cantabricus can grow in this limestone places due to an "Endoperlocación" phenomenon.
Basically it means that the PH of the soil changes to acid just on the surface, due to the rains. This could make possible the adaptation of terophytes and even some geophytes which prefer silicio places, if there are many rains per year. Málaga for example is one of the provinces with more rains per year.

[Maggi Young]

Rafa, thank you for this... I find it MOST interesting.

[DaveM]

Thanks for your explanation, Rafa. It seems to me that the description and distribution of subsp monophyllus (single leaf) that we have here is different from that classified by Spanish botanists. Sorry for introducing the confusion!

However, I'm not at all convinced about your explanation of acid soil at the surface overlying limestone for some of these bulbs. The only case where this might be true is in some of our upland bogs where limestone is covered by a thick covering of peat. This is not the case in most Mediterranean limestone areas where soil is thin to absent (except in the large 'poljas' where the terra rossa is thick locally- but even this contains much residual limestone). Also the rains in say the Malaga areas are certainly not "relentless monsoon" in character which they would have to be to cause any significant soil leaching. I feel certain that any soil on limestone there will have pH greater than 7 - that could - perhaps should - be checked out.

The alpine garden literature in the UK is full of similar arguments, the main one being that rhododendrons can't be grown on limestone. Yet plant hunting accounts show that there are many such occurrences in the wild. The argument then went that the surface must be acid, perhaps because of leaching by rainwater. That is until David Rankin and colleagues proved that some rhodo species do grow with their roots in limestone - measurements in the field showed that the soil is calcareous, and the water extracted from the soil is also alkaline; monsoon floods in the Gang Ho Ba in Yunnan province of China (with bedrock entirely of limestone) are commonly milky white with excess calcium carbonate - these waters are alkaline. I believe that more than 50 species of rhodo have been identified as growing on soils with varying pH that is greater than 7. Can't remember the reference to this work - the original paper I think is in the Plantsman, but there is an abbreviated account in the Alpines 2001 conference volume. I think there must be some other explanation, Rafa.

[Lesley Cox]

Thanks Gerry. I believe a copy of Archibald's current seed list is on its way to me as we speak, so I'll look for those especially.