Snowdrop cultivation advice

[gote]

In this connection when we cannot lay our hands on potent fungicides.
It is possible to buy fungicides in groceries in many countries.
They are used for food actually.
Sodiumbenzoate. We are allowed to use it to kill mould in our home made jelly 
but not to kill mould on our bulbs. - but who is to know?
I hope I got the English spelling right. In Sweden one brand name used to be 'Atamon'
I am not sure about concentrations but it should be possible to find out.
Göte
 

[Martin Baxendale]

What bugs me is that farmers and greenkeepers can continue to use carbendazim, the best fungicide for snowdrops and other bulbs, in vast quantities for spraying on crops and watering onto turf, but gardeners can no longer buy the tiny quantities they would require to rescue diseased bulbs. I heard the problem was that the manufacturers of various such chemicals were prepared to pay the large sums required for re-certification, as part of the EU pesticides review, of such chemicals for large-scale use in farming etc., which is highly profitable, but were not prepared to pay the same large sums for re-certification for the much less profitable, smaller horticultural market. So no major saving for the environment or for safety in food production. Just an arguable reduction in the (probably quite small if properly used) risk to the amateur gardener.

[gote]

This is not only a manufacturer's problem it is also strangely inherent in the public discussion (or should I say 'outcry'?)
Normally we consider a surface as bigger than a line and a line as bigger than a point.
However, in publich discussions about herbicides and fungicides it is the other way around.
I farmers spray large areas with Roundup it is not a problem. However if a railroad is sprayed with the same chemical there is a public outcry.
And the use on a tiny patch in a home garden is sometimes forbidden.
Originally I culd buy Roundup freely. Then only farmers (and railroad authorities) could. Now I can buy again but only pre-diluted.
(Of course anybody knowing a firendly farmer could get it all the time.)
Presumaby the powers that be assume that I will not dilute it. The stuff is more expensive than wiskey so why should I use it neat??
Göte

[Alan_b]

Presumably there will be medical statistics to demonstrate that the population is now much healthier, having been denied access to all the dangerous chemicals formerly used in gardening?  Or perhaps the statistics don't say that.  Sometimes actual risk and perceived risk are completely different.  If you are too short and have to sit very close to the steering wheel when driving a car, there is a real risk that you will be killed by the air bag if it goes off.

[ichristie]

Hi all, I would like to make several points about sprays etc which have been withdrawn from public sale. I have worked in Horticulture for 40 plus years including the sale of garden chemicals. One most importand reason for withdraiwng was simple a survey was carried out questions were asked of the public as to how easy did they understand the measures used and instuctions given on bottles boxes or whatever. Most manufacturers provided a measure but nearly all the replies from the public showed that they never looked at the instructions did use the measures provided but thought these were small amounts  and added a second measure to make sure. We also found that public used systemic insecticides again probably double strength on food crops. Powder fertilisers were changed to pellets as peolpe were spreading this in the garden on windy days and breathing in the dust. I can tell you many millions of pounds have been awarded to people who sued the Chemical companies. I am no way suggesting that people are stupid and we are responsible, as I said earlier I am very concerned about the way chemicals are sprayed in agriculture, one pearly of wisdom to finish an old remedy is to spray aphids etc with soapy water, will it work you ask probably not but the soapy water will get in the insect eyes so they wont be able to see what to eat,  cheers Ian the Christie kind.

[KentGardener]

.....one pearly of wisdom to finish an old remedy is to spray aphids etc with soapy water, will it work you ask probably not but the soapy water will get in the insect eyes so they wont be able to see what to eat,  cheers Ian the Christie kind.

 

[Anthony Darby]

If the reasons Ian has outlined are why these chemicals were withdrawn, I don't understand why the public are trusted with anything? You just need to go into the cupboard under the sink to see chemicals which, if misused, can kill. Why should we be penalised because some people are stupid or careless? The litigation arguement is typical of today's society. Sounds like a fairly weak argument? Paraquat is still available as a weedkiller and I can remember some very vivid reports of deaths due to drinking that. It is interesting to note that we can use washing up liquid for aphid control but agriculture can't.

[Tony Willis]

In 1962 Rachel Carson recorded in 'Silent Spring' the death of a farm worker through skin contact,albeit on a large scale, when using paraquat.He had an accident and was immersed up to his waist and although washed of still absorbed enough through his skin to kill him. I do not think it was realised that the skin is permable.I always wear marigolds when using chemicals.

[Martin Baxendale]

It's all water under the bridge, but I'm sure the manufacturers could have got around the problems of amateur gardeners not diluting chemicals properly by simply selling pre-diluted as they do with some weedkillers and insecticides now, and building in other such safety precautions. A snowdrop grower with stagonospora I'm sure wouldn't mind having to pick up a litre bottle at the garden centre if it could save his or her bulbs. From what I've read, the size of the market and the amounts they could sell to amateur gardeners just wasn't worth enough to them. I'm against indiscriminate large-scale use of chemicals in the general environment and especially in food production, but on the scale a snowdrop grower would use them, the impact is non-existent.

It's a pity there isn't some sort of intermediate category of user between professional and complete novice amateur that would allow very experienced amateur gardeners to access chemicals available to nurserymen, farmers and greenkeepers, maybe if they get a certificate after a little training like any farm or golfcourse worker. Perhaps administered by the RHS and/or horticultural and agricultural colleges.

[art600]

Martin

Is there nothing available to reliably deal with 'stag'?  Should we just dispose of any bulbs that are affected?

This info would be welcome in case I find it.

[Martin Baxendale]

Martin

Is there nothing available to reliably deal with 'stag'?  Should we just dispose of any bulbs that are affected?

This info would be welcome in case I find it.

Carbendazim, for those who can get hold of it, is the best fungicide for stag, and good for most bulb ailments. It replaced that old standby benlate and was sold most recently to gardeners (before the EU review) as Spotless Fungicide. It can still be obtained if you're a nurseryman, greenkeeper etc. from the kinds of suppliers they deal with, but isn't on sale in garden centres any more.

[Martin Baxendale]

Sorry, meant to add to last post that I don't know of any other fungicide available to gardeners that works on stag. The usual advice is to try any wide-spectrum fungicide you can buy in the garden centre and hope it has some effect.

[art600]

Martin

Thanks for clarification.  I hope never to have need - but you know what happens when you say never.

[Paddy Tobin]

I wonder if carbendazim is present in any of the chemicals available to farmers for crop spraying?

Or, are any of the agricultural sprays effective in the treatment of fungal infection in bulbs?

Paddy

[Martin Baxendale]

I wonder if carbendazim is present in any of the chemicals available to farmers for crop spraying?

Or, are any of the agricultural sprays effective in the treatment of fungal infection in bulbs?

Paddy

Paddy, here's a link to a goverment website listing agricultural fungicides containing carbendazim. It's used on many crops, including for dipping apples yet gardeners can;t be trusted with it!

http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/applicant_advice.asp?id=860