Cyclamen 2009

[David Shaw]

Paul, if it could shout it would be saying 'get me an umberella!'. I doubt if there will be much scent this morning after last nights storm but I will give it a sniff later.
All our purpurescens have plain, dark leaves. Is it possible for these to seed a marbled leaf like this?

[Diane Clement]

My first initial reaction was hederifolium, because of the flower shape.  The timing is OK, I always have hederifolium in flower in July (as Martin says, usually two weeks after heavy rain in June).  But I did ponder whether there were two tubers in the picture.  

However, the leaves don't shout hederifolium, not particularly because of the shape, (although they would be unusual for a hed), but hederifolium doesn't produce its leaves until later in the season, by which time you would expect more flowers for the size of plant producing this quantity of leaves.  The leaves also look rather thick and glossy, a feature typical of C hed confusum but that is certainly a later flower.  

So after pondering it several times, and seeing the close up I come back to thinking it must be purpurascens.  Something about the way the dark purple blends at the edge of the corolla also looks distinctly purpurascens and distinctly not hederifolium.  Has it ever been dormant?  hederifolium will always have a rest, up to two months, but purpurascens doesn't really have a dormancy, and will often keep its old leaves while producing new, and may still have unripe fruits on the plant at the same time as new flowers.  David, is there any sign of fruits as that could also help id.  

I doubt if there will be much scent this morning after last nights storm but I will give it a sniff later.  All our purpurescens have plain, dark leaves. Is it possible for these to seed a marbled leaf like this?

Yes, these marbled leaves are very typical of purpurascens and I am sure they could arise from plain leaved parents.  

[Hans A.]

I also would think it is a c. purpurascens - here you can see a scottish one with similar flowers.

http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2007/150807/log.html

[David Shaw]

In the interests of science I have just put my swimming trunks on (no, not really) and been outside for another look. I don't have any known hederifolium in flower yet but do have some known purpurascens to compare it with, and Chris Grey-Wilsons book.
Tuber - I did a scrape of the soil by the tuber, not too much, and it is hairy
Scent - non detectable but after last nights rain I am not too surprised
Auricle - visible but not pronounced. My known purpurascens don't have any visible auricle
Petals - flattened compared with the erect petals of my known purpurascens and Ian's as shown in the link given by Hans.
Buds - there are many flower buds beneath the leaves waiting to come out.
The only other cyclamen I have in this area of garden are purpurascens and cilicium. The nearest hederifolium would be some 10m away.
For information I include a picture of one of my 'known' C. purpurascens.
Having just opened the picture I would observe that the buds of the query cyclamen are nestled below the leaves whilst the buds of the known purpurascens are erect and well above the leaves.
Is it possible for hederifolium and purpurascens to hybridise?

[Martin Baxendale]

David, hederifolium and purpurascens are unlikely to hybridise. They've not closely related species and there have been no substantiated cases of the two crossing that I'm aware of (though I'm not 100% up to date with the latest news in cyclamen circles - really must find time to read my Cyclamen Society journals properly instead of skimming through them).

Seed from the hederifoliums could find its way 10 meters across the garden. Squirrels will take seed pods and drop seeds along the way, and ants will carry individual seeds a long way, for their sticky honey-like coating.

Looking at the pic again, it could equally be either an atypical hederifolium or an atypical purpurascens. Diane's questions about leaf dormancy and seed pods could help. But I think trying again to check for scent would be the clincher. Could you pick a flower and take it indoors? That might bring out the scent. Some hederifolium can be lightly scented but don't usually have that very strong scent that purpurascens has.

[johnw]

David, hederifolium and purpurascens are unlikely to hybridise.

 Martin - I have been awaiting that hybrid for sometime but have never seen a mention in a CS Journal. It would be a valuable cross.

I am now veering toward purpurascens for David's plant as the leaves look like last year's and on second look the auricles are not that pronounced.

C. purpurascens leaves here are still looking fine with all the rain and cool temperatures and I expect to see flowers anytime now.  C. purpurascens can throw wonderfully silvered leaves but the fully silvered ones are not terribly persistent in the garden.

johnw

[Martin Baxendale]

I'm also starting to think it might be purpurascens. In the close-up the auricles don't look as pronounced as you'd expect for hederifolium and the mouth of the flower generally looks more like purpurascens, although from a distance it still looks quite a lot like hederifolium.

[Diane Clement]

I'm also 95+% sure it is purpurascens from all aspects of flower and leaves and timing. 

[David Shaw]

Well, folks, thank you for your interest and comments. It seems that you unanimously go for a hesitant purpurascens from pictures and my descriptions. Interestingly, I was going the other way towards hederifolium mainly based on the aspect of the petals and buds. I will bring a flower indoors, probably from one of the new buds when they open, as Martin suggests and see if that helps any.
Whatever its name it is an attractive Cyclamen but I won't offer seed to the exchange!

[Guff]

Heres a picture of a Purpurascens corm/tuber. It is half ball shaped, and has several floral trucks growing/forming. This is growing indoors under lights, so the leaves are running a tad. I will take a picture of one that is growing outside later. The leaves are more clumped, like David's picture above.

Hederifolium corm/tuber is more flat/blackish in color, maybe even indented in the center. If covered with soil, it will have roots all over the top of the corm/tuber.

David mentions 'hairy' above? Are these roots he is seeing?

Back in December I borrowed Cyclamen  By C. Grey-Wilson from my local library. I recall it said Purpurascens and Hederifolium had the same gene number, and could cross. It was a matter that they don't flower at the same time in nature. I made a note that I would save some Purpurascens pollen and store it in the freezer. This is from my memory, I don't have the book.

[Martin Baxendale]

Yes, hederifolium and purpurascens do have the same chromosome count but Grey-Wilson says that even between species with the same chromosome numbers there is still an incompatibility barrier to crossing. Of course that's not to say it's impossible. It's always worthwhile investigating these siuations involding possible hybridisation just in case.

One thing that threw me (and Diane mentioned wondering of there were two plants in the clump) is that the topmost flower in David's picture looks more like hederifolium and the lower picture (the one that's been enlarged) looks more like purpurascens. I can't decide if it's just the way the light's catching and enhancing the auricles on the top flower.

[David Shaw]

I'm not clear what you mean, Martin. I posted one picture only of the query Cyclamen. It has two flowers, the top flower being newer than the bottom flower. Guff Kindly enlarged the lower, older flower (I don't mind, Guff). In real life the two flowers look identical other than that the bottom one is  slightly more lax and faded. There is also the seed head forming of a third flower that has just gone over but, as I said earlier, there are lots of buds beneath the leaves.
I don't want to disturb the corm too much at this stage but I'm pretty certain that there is only one corm.
Guff's picture of his purpurascens tuber seems to be much more polished and rounded than the one I am showing although mine is sitting in rather wet soil from last nights rain. C. G-W appears to indicate that purpurascens tubers also have roots from the side but doesn't show a picture.I believe the 'hairs' to be roots

[Martin Baxendale]

the topmost flower in David's picture looks more like hederifolium and the lower picture flower (the one that's been enlarged) looks more like purpurascens. I can't decide if it's just the way the light's catching and enhancing the auricles on the top flower.

Sorry David, I meant to write "lower flower", not "lower picture".

[Guff]

Top flower

[Martin Baxendale]

Top flower

Thanks for enlarging that one too. When you see it in close-up, it does look like the light is catching the tips of the petal bases and making them look more auriculate than they actually are. Looking more and more like purpurascens. David, does the tuber have a dip in the middle with the flower buds coming from this central dip? Hederifolium tubers generally develope that kind of a shallow depression in the centre of the top with age, but purpurascens tubers tend to stay rounded and un-hollowed.