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Iris
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Oncos 2009
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Topic: Oncos 2009 (Read 88132 times)
Regelian
Hero Member
Posts: 943
Country:
waking escapes the dream
Re: Oncos 2009
«
Reply #315 on:
April 30, 2009, 08:08:07 PM »
Simon,
the other parent was the tall bearded 'Mary Frances', a medium blue self. There are quite a few similar crosses currently being made (by myself, amongst others) with tetraploid regelias, such as I. stolonifera and I. hoogiana, crossed with tetraploid tall beardeds. The idea is to create a fertile family of tetraploids that would have the best qualities of both groups. I am, also, working on crosses with tetraploid arils and pumila-type beardeds to create a smaller race with similar qualities.
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Jamie Vande
Cologne
Germany
Sinchets
our Bulgarian connection
Hero Member
Posts: 1702
On the quest for knowledge.
Re: Oncos 2009
«
Reply #316 on:
April 30, 2009, 08:14:09 PM »
That sounds interesting Jamie. I am new to all this- are all the different groups interfertile? Do dwarf bearded irises cross just as well with Regelias and Oncos?
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Simon
Balkan Rare Plant Nursery
Stara Planina, Bulgaria. Altitude 482m.
Lowest winter (shade) temp -25C.
Highest summer (shade) temp 35C.
Regelian
Hero Member
Posts: 943
Country:
waking escapes the dream
Re: Oncos 2009
«
Reply #317 on:
April 30, 2009, 10:41:40 PM »
Simon,
unfortunately, it is not that simple with the genus Iris. Mind you, it is a fascinating challenge to create interfertile hybrids, but most of the bearded iris are not interfertile beyond one generation. If you want, I can explain this more thoroughly through a personal post, but the basics are that we have various chromosome configurations that are only partly compatable. Not all Iris are diploids, many are tetraploids and of these, some belong to a group know as amphidiploids. What this essentially means is, diploids may have 8, 10, 11 or 12 pairs of chromosomes, while the tetraploids twice as many. The amphidiploids are the fascinating part, as the wild forms represent ancient natural hybrids between incompatable parents that have somehow doubled their chromosomes, thus becoming fertile.
An example is I. chamaeiris, which has 40 chromosomes, made up of two sets of different diploid chromosomes. The theory is that a dwarf diploid, with n=8 as a basic chromosome configuration, crossed with a n=12 species and formed a 20 chromosome hybrid, which would typically be infertile. Mother nature wasn't finished, here, and the chromosomes doubled to 40. (there are a few other paths to this result) This gave a configuration of 8-8-12-12 chromosomes, which, due to the balanced pairs of 8 and 12 chromsomes, could perform a successful meiosis, which creates the eggs and pollen. The hybrids stabilized to a new species and continues reproducing. (I have over simplified this a bit, to keep the theory clear)
With the arils, oncocyclus have n=10 (2n= 20 chromosomes) and regelia has n=11 (2n = 22 chromosomes). Interestingly, they will cross on the diploid level and produce fertile off-spring, despite the uneven chromosome pairs. An oncoregelia typically has 21 chromosomes in the first generation. Further generations seem to loose the extra chromosome and often stabilize at 20 chromosomes. What actually happens is not well understood.
The aril-breds are hybrids with arils and other bearded forms. They may be crosses with SBD or TB and the fertile ones are artificial amphidiploids in most cases, with 44 chromosomes (10-10-12-12).
This all sound like a lot of rules that need to be understood, which of course helps, but it is the exceptions that make things an interesting challenge. Most SBD hybrids are actually amphidiploids of 40 chromosomes, such as I. chamaeiris. When they are crossed with a tetraploid onco or regelia, they will tend to produce infertile offspring due to a chromosome imbalance. There are exceptions, however, which are again poorly understood, but a good reason to try crosses, regardless of how hopeless they may appear on paper.
I hope this lay some groundwork for you. If you have questions, please let me know. I'll make a valliant attept to explain what I understand. A cool website to visit is
http://www.smcallister.com/
from Sharon McAllister. Lots of interesting info and pretty pictures, as well!
«
Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 10:45:57 PM by Regelian
»
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Jamie Vande
Cologne
Germany
arillady
Hero Member
Posts: 1955
Country:
Re: Oncos 2009
«
Reply #318 on:
May 01, 2009, 12:14:37 AM »
Jamie one of the seedlings that I planted out yesterday was a cross: Iris pseudopumila x Iris samariae hybrid (yellow form). It did not show any aril on the seed so I am wondering if the bees might have got there first. Will be interesting to see what eventuates - one seedling germinated out of the 17 seeds in the pots. Just after the first opening atumn rains and when I think that we should have followup rain is when I plant out new seedlings. The soil is still warm and they have a chance to grow on a bit. As we don't have severe winters they newly planted seedlings seem to cope well.
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Pat Toolan,
Keyneton,
South Australia
Regelian
Hero Member
Posts: 943
Country:
waking escapes the dream
Re: Oncos 2009
«
Reply #319 on:
May 01, 2009, 09:35:55 AM »
Pat,
actually, as the seed parent is non-aril, seed will not have an aril. Their development is part of the morphology of the seed parent. I suspect the off-spring will be difficult to breed with, as they will now have 18 chromosomes (10 aril and 8 SDB), but I am never one to give up. It will be exciting to see what comes of it. I'm always amazed at the influence the arils stamp on their hybrids.
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Jamie Vande
Cologne
Germany
Regelian
Hero Member
Posts: 943
Country:
waking escapes the dream
Re: Oncos 2009
«
Reply #320 on:
May 01, 2009, 04:54:41 PM »
Here are two more arils that bloomed today. The first is another clone of I. stolonifera from seed, about 2 weeks later thean clone 3. The second is a seedling from Harold Mathes, an interesting cross between the regelia hybrid Vera and two different MTB, then crossed together. Rather tall, 3-4 buds (1 branch), large flower and lightly fragrant.
stolonifera Clone 1
(Vera x Radiant Apogee) X (Vera x Heather Hawk) Mathes
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Jamie Vande
Cologne
Germany
Sinchets
our Bulgarian connection
Hero Member
Posts: 1702
On the quest for knowledge.
Re: Oncos 2009
«
Reply #321 on:
May 01, 2009, 06:20:44 PM »
That's a lovely fall on the second iris, Jamie
Have you any idea on how long it will be from seed to flower for this kind of hybrid?
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Simon
Balkan Rare Plant Nursery
Stara Planina, Bulgaria. Altitude 482m.
Lowest winter (shade) temp -25C.
Highest summer (shade) temp 35C.
Regelian
Hero Member
Posts: 943
Country:
waking escapes the dream
Re: Oncos 2009
«
Reply #322 on:
May 01, 2009, 08:05:35 PM »
Simon,
as with most Iris, germination is the key. Once germinated, seedlings may bloom in the next season, but typically 2 years or more. If one sows the seed directly as it is ripe and a bit green, it will generallly germinate in a few days to weeks, which gives one a jump.
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Jamie Vande
Cologne
Germany
Sinchets
our Bulgarian connection
Hero Member
Posts: 1702
On the quest for knowledge.
Re: Oncos 2009
«
Reply #323 on:
May 01, 2009, 09:18:06 PM »
Thanks again, Jamie. I had 3 germinations of onco hybrids in a seed bed- the seed was very old- but they have 3 and 4 leaves already- to be honest I was shocked with how quickly the put on so much growth!
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Simon
Balkan Rare Plant Nursery
Stara Planina, Bulgaria. Altitude 482m.
Lowest winter (shade) temp -25C.
Highest summer (shade) temp 35C.
BULBISSIME
Hero Member
Posts: 1362
Country:
USDA zone 8
Re: Oncos 2009
«
Reply #324 on:
May 01, 2009, 09:42:52 PM »
Jamie, your stoloniferas are like jewels !!
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Fred
Vienne, France
( USDA zone 8 )
Facebook :
http://www.facebook.com/IrisOncocyclus
Regelian
Hero Member
Posts: 943
Country:
waking escapes the dream
Re: Oncos 2009
«
Reply #325 on:
May 02, 2009, 07:55:17 PM »
Fred, thanks, I have to agree with you. It is my favourite specie. I am collecting as many clones as I can get my hands on.
Attached is another seedling from Harold Mathes. This is a F2 cross of a branched aril seedling X Vanity. An attempt to get the tangerine factor into the aril lines. It is a pretty flower, but we obviously are not near our goal!
. What I find interesting is the intense yellow of the column and the lime-gold beard. I have crossed it with 'Pink Pele' to reinforce the tangerine factor, assuming it is there. I, also, tried its pollen on
I stolonifera
, to see if it takes.
«
Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 01:30:23 PM by Regelian
»
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Jamie Vande
Cologne
Germany
Hans A.
bulb growing paradise
Hero Member
Posts: 1470
Country:
Re: Oncos 2009
«
Reply #326 on:
May 02, 2009, 08:13:50 PM »
Quote from: Regelian on May 02, 2009, 07:55:17 PM
Harold Mathes.
Har
a
ld Mathes
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Hans - Balearic Islands/Spain
10a - 140nn
Regelian
Hero Member
Posts: 943
Country:
waking escapes the dream
Re: Oncos 2009
«
Reply #327 on:
May 02, 2009, 09:54:40 PM »
yeah, yeah. Just don't tell him I mis-spelled his name!
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Jamie Vande
Cologne
Germany
BULBISSIME
Hero Member
Posts: 1362
Country:
USDA zone 8
Re: Oncos 2009
«
Reply #328 on:
May 03, 2009, 12:56:55 AM »
Last one for me in the bulb frame,
Iris iberica ssp. lycotis
Iris acutiloba ssp. lineolata
Many thank's hans, I think I was a bit tired yesterday.... wrong name !!
one year more to wait for new flowers ....
«
Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 10:57:46 AM by BULBISSIME
»
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Fred
Vienne, France
( USDA zone 8 )
Facebook :
http://www.facebook.com/IrisOncocyclus
Regelian
Hero Member
Posts: 943
Country:
waking escapes the dream
Re: Oncos 2009
«
Reply #329 on:
May 03, 2009, 09:42:40 AM »
Quote from: BULBISSIME on May 03, 2009, 12:56:55 AM
one year more to wait for new flowers ....
I hear, ya! Lovely foto of a very pretty flower, by the way
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Jamie Vande
Cologne
Germany
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Oncos 2009
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