Allium 2009

[Paul T]

These nodding ones that you've all been posting look great.  It certainly does add a different dimension to the Alliums.  Are they as nice in person as they look in the pics?

[TheOnionMan]

Hi Stephen, here is an very old pic (slide) from A. narcissiflorum, wild in France, with more flowers than A. insubricum.

This is what I have as Allium insubricum, grown from seed a few years ago.

Nice photos of Allium insubricum and narcissiflorum.  I think the photos show well the differences between the two.  I mentioned the most often cited difference, that the inflorescence of A. narcissiflorum become erect at late anthesis, but there are other differences. 

Flower color is not really important diagnostically, in both species it is variable.  Back in the 1980s when I lived in Seattle, Washington, I grew several color forms of both species, ranging from light pink, to deep reddish-purple (although it seems A. insubricum more commonly has the deeper color forms).

Allium narcissiflorum has slightly smaller flowers than insubricum, more openly campanulate too, and with potentially more flowers per head.  Look at the foliage of the two species posted here, it's narrower in narcissiflorum... rather delicate, it is wider and more robust in insubricum.  There are differences in bulb coats or tunics too, see Flora Europaea for details.

In cultivation it seems you have a higher chance of getting A. insubricum than true narcissiflorum, which is okay by me, as A. insubricum is a gorgeous species, as shown in Roma's photo.  But of course, A. narcissiflorum is beautiful too.  I fail miserably with both species in my hot and dry New England garden, still haven't found the right microclimate for either species.

Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, near the New Hampshire border, USDA Zone 5
antennaria@charter.net

[TheOnionMan]

I mentioned above that A. kurtzianum was fragrant. Has anyone else noticed that? The foliage when crushed or injured is onion-like of course but the flowers are scented of lily-of-the-valley, not so strong as that but very pleasant indeed. Now you've mentioned Mt Ida Mark, that name rings a faint bell in my memory. I suppose I still have the field notes somewhere but let's face it, it was 43 years ago!

Hi Leslie.  I'm an avid "sniffer"... always sniffing flowers, after all, it's part of their charm and character.  I find that most alliums actually have very pleasantly scented flowers.  In some, such as A. senescens and nutans, the flowers are sweet yet there's a hint of onion scent too, but overall the impression is one of "sweetness"... I love smelling allium flowers.  Even with a tinge of alliaceous scent, not bad, and certainly the bees, wasps, moths, and butterflies love these nectariferous allium plants.  Some Allium species have incredibly perfumed flowers, such as midwest American A. perdulce, or many Asian species such as A. darwasicum.  As I recall, Allium kurtzianum has a nice fragrance, typical of many allium in general.

Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, near the New Hampshire border, USDA Zone 5
antennaria@charter.net

[johnw]

Having grown A. insubricum and A. narcissiflorum from seed ex exchanges on many ocassions I never got the real maccoys. Theys always turned out to be A. cyathophorum v. farreri.

I hope the situation has changed.

Mark - I wonder how hardy the ACE Alliums are - forrestii 4200m and nanordes 4200-4600m?  Their roots are persistent here in pots and have an extremely short dormant period.  Guess I should bite the bullet.

johnw

[TheOnionMan]

Mark,
I'm attaching picture of dwarf beauty from Iran. May be you can identify it?
Janis

Hi Janis,  it's a nice allium to be sure.  I have been in recent correspondance with Dr. Reinhard Fritsch, who has basically taken over for Wendelbo in the understanding of Allium in Iran and neighboring territories.  Much work has been done, and he recently shared with me  several publications, the most important being:  "NEW TAXA AND OTHER CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE TAXONOMY OF ALLIUM L. (ALLIACEAE) IN IRAN by: R.M. FRITSCH and M. ABBASI", 2008, with 14-15 new species described in great detail based on living material of "type" specimens.  One can't just use Flora Iranica, or other older regional floras, as so much new work is being done in these vast geographic areas to add to our understanding of the taxa in these areas. 

Looking at that publication, with photos of each, your plant looks closest to Allium moderense R.M. Fritsch, species nova 2008.  The detailed description seems to match too, with the exception of the stamen color... in your specimen the stamens are purple, in the new species A. moderense the stamens are described as white.  Maybe Dr. Fritsch should be consulted.  Where was you plant collected?

I'm not sure to what liberty I have in posting here information that Dr. Fritsch shared with me.  Hopefully it's safe to show a photograph of one of the newly described species, Allium hamedanense, a spectacular dwarf species with dramatic blackish red flowers.

Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, near the New Hampshire border, USDA Zone 5
antennaria@charter.net

[Lesley Cox]

My word! A. hamedanense is a beauty!

John, my seed exchange experience is the same as yours. Narcissiflorum always was cyathophorum v. farreri, a nice species but disappointing if masquerading as the other. My present seedlings are from one of the Czech collectors so I hope will be true. Insubricum is from a local source and time will tell.

[TheOnionMan]

Having grown A. insubricum and A. narcissiflorum from seed ex exchanges on many ocassions I never got the real maccoys. Theys always turned out to be A. cyathophorum v. farreri.

I hope the situation has changed.

Mark - I wonder how hardy the ACE Alliums are - forrestii 4200m and nanordes 4200-4600m?  Their roots are persistent here in pots and have an extremely short dormant period.  Guess I should bite the bullet.

johnw

Yes, Allium cyathophorum v. farreri is the great usurper of many allium species in the seed exchanges  Often when trying seed of Allium narcissiflorum, you'll get the usurper mentioned, or get Allium cernuum, haha.

ACE alliums forrestii and nanodes (note spelling on latter), are a couple I have lusted over for many years.  Where did you get these?  In particular A. forrestii is reported having a great range of flower color, including some deep maroon red colors.

Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, near the New Hampshire border, USDA Zone 5
antennaria@charter.net

[TheOnionMan]

Wonderful pictures of tauricum, which I've seen before on your web site. I remember seeing your pictures and getting hold of some seed from NARGS about 5 years ago, hoping for something similar. There was some variation as you can see (perhaps they were your seed?)

Stephen, nice bronzy-orange forms of Allium flavum v. tauricum.  It is these slightly "off-color" forms, that are in the yellow range but are strongly tinged with copper, that please me most.  My seed has gotten around, so it could be that the seed was from other NARGS members that are growing on seed that I occasionally contribute to NARGS.

While I'm here, let me indulge in just two more photos, each being seedling beds, each 2 years old, of mixed Allium flavum var. tauricum seedlings in 2002.  The color range is amazing... pure fun.  On a more serious note, 4 years ago when we had a 50-year record-breaking spring in terms of rainfall, even though I'm high on a hillside at about 500' above sea level, being over bedrock my garden seeped water well into the end of June, and I lost a huge amount of allium that year... even the raised beds wicked up the excess moisture and stayed way too wet... Allium flavum var. tauricum bulbs were dessimated that year.  I lost many of the color forms that I had named, and must sort of begin again.

Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, near the New Hampshire border, USDA Zone 5
antennaria@charter.net

[fermi de Sousa]

Very nice, Mark.
I only have the "school bus" yellow ones here at present but must request some seed from NARGS this year if they are available again!
cheers
fermi

[Paul T]

Mark,

Had you shared bulbs are seed about of those named ones, so that you could get pieces or progeny back from them?  I must admit I always try to backup things with friends, so that if anything happens to mine I can ask for a division etc back from someone.  It saves the whole "starting again" bit.  If they're lost, that is just awful, as you have some amazing colours in there.

[TheOnionMan]

Mark,

Had you shared bulbs are seed about of those named ones, so that you could get pieces or progeny back from them?  I must admit I always try to backup things with friends, so that if anything happens to mine I can ask for a division etc back from someone.  It saves the whole "starting again" bit.  If they're lost, that is just awful, as you have some amazing colours in there.

Hi Paul.  Yes, I did share plants with a local Allium fancier.  She is older than I am (I'm 55, she's retirement age), but she decided to discontinue her nursery and sell her home, so that didn't help in terms of the plants.  I also sent about 12 named color selections to Paige Woodward at Pacific Rim Nursery, and about 3 of the 12 can be purchased so far from that nursery. Just checked, and 2 varieties are available at:
http://www.hillkeep.ca/bulbs%20allium%20a-h.htm

Part of the problem for me were the demands of my full time job these past 20+ years, worked 11 hour days and with a 3-hour daily round trip commute (= minimal gardening time).  But that's all changed now 2 months ago, when I was laid off after all those years (boy, all that hard work paid off ;-).  So, now I'm enjoying the first time in 32 years of working continuously, being unemployed and perusing the wonders of modern-day internet botanizing... love it!

Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, near the New Hampshire border, USDA Zone 5
antennaria@charter.net

[Paul T]

Mark,

I'm glad you are at least possibly able to get a bulb or seed back from your originals, so that you don't have to start your breeding programmes again.  I do so wish that we could order plants from some of the Northern Hemisphere nurseries..... they have such interesting plants.  I don't know what we'd do without Marcus Harvey and a very few other sellers of rare and unusual bulbs and perennials.  I think we'd all die of envy at the things we couldn't grow (it's already bad enough seeing so many things that are impossible to get here!  ).

[Knud Poulsen]

Hi Janis,  it's a nice allium to be sure.  I have been in recent correspondance with Dr. Reinhard Fritsch, who has basically taken over for Wendelbo in the understanding of Allium in Iran and neighboring territories.  Much work has been done, and he recently shared with me  several publications, the most important being:  "NEW TAXA AND OTHER CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE TAXONOMY OF ALLIUM L. (ALLIACEAE) IN IRAN by: R.M. FRITSCH and M. ABBASI", 2008, with 14-15 new species described in great detail based on living material of "type" specimens.  One can't just use Flora Iranica, or other older regional floras, as so much new work is being done in these vast geographic areas to add to our understanding of the taxa in these areas. 

The publication NEW TAXA AND OTHER CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE TAXONOMY OF ALLIUM L. (ALLIACEAE) IN IRAN by FRITSCH and ABBASI is apparently available on the Internet:

http://www.sid.ir/en/VEWSSID/J_pdf/80220080201.pdf

[johnw]

ACE alliums forrestii and nanodes (note spelling on latter), are a couple I have lusted over for many years.  Where did you get these?  In particular A. forrestii is reported having a great range of flower color, including some deep maroon red colors.

Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, near the New Hampshire border, USDA Zone 5
antennaria@charter.net

Mark - These along with A. prattii and a species cw Yulong Shan above Xi Song,China 3500m to 30cm were sown in 1994 from the original ACE seed.

Sometime in the past I posted shots, hopefully in an Allium thread.

If someone is headed your way next autumn I will get them to post you copies in the USA.

johnw

[Maggi Young]

The publication NEW TAXA AND OTHER CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE TAXONOMY OF ALLIUM L. (ALLIACEAE) IN IRAN by FRITSCH and ABBASI is apparently available on the Internet:

http://www.sid.ir/en/VEWSSID/J_pdf/80220080201.pdf

 That's useful, Knud, many thanks!