Galanthus March 2009

[Robin Callens]

Hi all,

Thanks for your admiring words. It allmost feels as if I created the plant myself and not just spotted it on a rainy sunday afternoon two years ago in a drift of regular white nivalis.
My only intention was to show you a picture of this rather unusual (I thought) coloured Galanthus. I certainly did not intend to give these quiet little plants the fright of their lives by threatening them with horrible words as twinscaling, chipping, narcissus flies and other monsters  .

[Maggi Young]

Hi all,

Thanks for your admiring words. It allmost feels as if I created the plant myself and not just spotted it on a rainy sunday afternoon two years ago in a drift of regular white nivalis.
My only intention was to show you a picture of this rather unusual (I thought) coloured Galanthus. I certainly did not intend to give these quiet little plants the fright of their lives by threatening them with horrible words as twinscaling, chipping, narcissus flies and other monsters  .

In that case, Robin, you had better plant it somewhere very private and quiet or the little flowers may be terrified by some Galanthophile! 

[Robin Callens]

To all the people who sent me personal messages regarding 'Green Mile':

I will try to answer them all tomorrow evening after school.

[Paddy Tobin]

I can offer help with homework if that is any good.

Actually, if you were a student in my school, I would excuse you homework altogether.

Paddy

[Maggi Young]

I certainly did not intend to give these quiet little plants the fright of their lives by threatening them with horrible words as twinscaling, chipping, narcissus flies and other monsters  .

You can be sure that the only way to keep these bulbs going is to scare them literally with a knife in the right hands. The Narcissus fly will read the headlines in it's newspaper This summer.

Stuff and nonsense, plants have survived for hundreds of years by doing what they want, and Robin's 'drops could do just that. If they are fit and healthy they will increase and thrive, as millions of snowdrops have done before, without human intervention...... all this talk of twinscaling is fuelled by the Galanthophiles who are so desperate  to have these rarities multiplied for distribution ..... a fever replicated in some circles in respect of other unusual plants....... grow your Green Mile yourself, Robin, and , in a few years, if it proves to be of sound constitution and habit, then think about multiplying it for the ravenous hordes.  I think of tales I have heard of plants given for propagation which come back with virus, or do not come back at all...... not everything in the world of  plants is fair or  fine..... be suspicious, and proceed with caution! That's my advice!

[Martin Baxendale]

You can be sure that the only way to keep these bulbs going is to scare them literally with a knife in the right hands. The Narcissus fly will read the headlines in it's newspaper This summer.

Sorry, Mark, but Ian already said that he knows Robin has the skill to chip one or two of the bulbs himself if he wants to, and Robin seems from his posts in other threads to be a knowledgeable young plantsman, plus people have offered advice if it's needed, so I'm not sure that your emphasis of "in the right hands"  re chipping is entirely appropriate. I know everyone would like to see this wonderful snowdrop available for more people to grow, but I get the feeling that Robin can be trusted with the care and increase of the bulbs.

[Anthony Darby]

Quite so Martin. I wonder how long it took Galanthus alpinus bortkewitschianus to bulk up, after all, it now covers ~6 hextares (60,000m²)? It has done so by vegetative means naturally as the flowers of this triploid (3n = 36) are infertile.

[Jim McKenney]

Quite so Martin. I wonder how long it took Galanthus alpinus bortkewitschianus to bulk up, after all, it now covers ~6 hextares (60,000m²)? It has done so by vegetative means naturally as the flowers of this triploid (3n = 36) are infertile.

While it’s true that triploids do not typically set viable seed when pollinated by diploid pollen, many triploids will set abundant viable seed when pollinated by suitable tetraploid pollen.

Are there such things as tetraploid snowdrops?

Also, if bortkewitschianus is a triploid clone (rather than a sexually reproducing population), then I don’t think it should  have a botanical name, it should have a clonal name.  On the other hand, if bortkewitschianus is of hybrid origin (many triploids seem to be), then the name bortkewitschianus becomes available (confusingly) for all plants of similar parentage (but not necessarily similar appearance).

[Alan_b]

Quite so Martin. I wonder how long it took Galanthus alpinus bortkewitschianus to bulk up, after all, it now covers ~6 hextares (60,000m²)? It has done so by vegetative means naturally as the flowers of this triploid (3n = 36) are infertile.

...
Also, if bortkewitschianus is a triploid clone (rather than a sexually reproducing population), then I don’t think it should  have a botanical name, it should have a clonal name.... 

According to The Book; " Galanthus alpinus var. bortkewitschianus is known from only one restricted locality ... where it is said to form a single vegatatively propagating population covering five to six hectares.  Artjushenko reports that it is sterile...".

The only factor I can see that distinguishes bortkewitschianus from the mass of G. alpinus apart from the fact that it happens to be a sterile clone is that the bulb scales are described as yellowish whereas in other G. alpinus they are described as whitish.  So I'm with Jim, in that I don't see the reason why bortkewitschianus is var. bortkewitschianus and not just bortkewitschianus

[Alan_b]

I certainly did not intend to give these quiet little plants the fright of their lives by threatening them with horrible words as twinscaling, chipping, narcissus flies and other monsters  .

You can be sure that the only way to keep these bulbs going is to scare them literally with a knife in the right hands. The Narcissus fly will read the headlines in it's newspaper This summer.

Mark seems to have attracted a chorus of criticism for this remark; I'm left wondering what he means.  By the time you come to chip or twin scale a bulb the narcissus fly would have done its deed so I presume in such cases one cuts open a bulb to find a narcissus fly larva in the middle but perhaps giving you the option of salvaging the bulb before it is completely eaten.  Is this a common occurrence amongst those who do twin scaling???

In general, I suppose the act of twin-scaling forces you to remove the bulb elsewhere so at least you spread the risk away from having a single clump.  But I am not convinced that the mathematics of twin-scaling always beats natural division.  If Robin has gone from one flower two years ago to nine flowers this year that would seem to imply a rapid increase by natural division.

[Hans A.]

According to The Book; " Galanthus alpinus var. bortkewitschianus is known from only one restricted locality ... where it is said to form a single vegatatively propagating population covering five to six hectares.  Artjushenko reports that it is sterile...".

The only factor I can see that distinguishes bortkewitschianus from the mass of G. alpinus apart from the fact that it happens to be a sterile clone is that the bulb scales are described as yellowish whereas in other G. alpinus they are described as whitish.  So I'm with Jim, in that I don't see the reason why bortkewitschianus is var. bortkewitschianus and not just bortkewitschianus

So should it not be Galanthus alpinus forma bortkewitschianus (or if you want to give it a clonal name Galanthus alpinus 'Bortkewitschianus')?

[Anthony Darby]

According to The Book; " Galanthus alpinus var. bortkewitschianus is known from only one restricted locality ... where it is said to form a single vegatatively propagating population covering five to six hectares.  Artjushenko reports that it is sterile...".

The only factor I can see that distinguishes bortkewitschianus from the mass of G. alpinus apart from the fact that it happens to be a sterile clone is that the bulb scales are described as yellowish whereas in other G. alpinus they are described as whitish.  So I'm with Jim, in that I don't see the reason why bortkewitschianus is var. bortkewitschianus and not just bortkewitschianus

So should it not be Galanthus alpinus forma bortkewitschianus (or if you want to give it a clonal name Galanthus alpinus 'Bortkewitschianus')?

To my mind it is halfway to becoming a new species. The next step will be polyploidy of all 36 chromosomes to become a fertile hexaploid. This could be induced using colchicine, but sometime somewhere it will happen naturally. I wonder how long bortkewitschianus has been in existance? It would take a long time to bulk up to 6 hectares, unless they reproduce like trifids?

[Martin Baxendale]

Alan, I wasn't intending to criticise Mark or cause offence and I wasn't saying that chipping shouldn't be tried at all. I was just reminding people that Ian had said he knew Robin had the ability to chip the snowdrop himself; and that forumists continuing to press Robin to send bulbs away for chipping, such as Mark advocating and emphasising chipping "in the right hands" (with 'right' underlined for emphasis) could be interpreted as casting doubt on Robin's ability to look after and increase his own bulbs. That may or may not have been what Mark meant, but I thought it was open to that interpretation. Perhaps Mark could clarify what he meant. But as I understand it, Robin and his family are experienced and knowledgeable plantspeople with the ability to care for 'Green Mile' and with equally knowledgeable and experienced connections who can advise them if need be, so I don't think anyone needs to worry about the snowdrop being lost.

I don't think Mark was talking about chipping as a remedy after narcissus fly infestation. I'm sure he meant using chipping to increase stocks, thereby increasing the odds of bulbs surviving in the event of a narcissus fly attack - plus more bulbs to play with equals more clumps spread around the garden which, as Alan rightly states, is a good insurance against loss from pests and disease. I've found it's possible to rescue a fly-infested bulb by cleaning and chipping, provided some basal plate remains. I haven't tried chipping  where the basal plate has been eaten or rotted away. However, trials are showing that basal plate material is not essential for some bulbil formation (as bulbils can form on severed bulb tops and on the sides of leaf scales) so in future I will try chipping to save damaged bulbs even if no basal plate is left.

I certainly would not advise chipping all the bulbs of 'Green Mile' in case it proves resistant to chipping, no bublis form and the plant is lost. It's unlikely, but some snowdrops do resist chipping and twin scaling and chipping all the bulbs could be risky. However, chipping just one or two bulbs would be a worthwhile experiment, would help increase the stocks and would give a useful comparison between speed of naural increase versus speed of increase from chipping.

If chipping is successful and fast then it can help provide Robin with more stock for himself and for swopping with other growers if he wants to do that. I'm sure he would get some excellent swops for such a good snowdrop. Alternatively, he may want to bulk it up himself for some kind of commercial release. Those are, of course, his decisions to make.

'Green Mile' does seem to be a strong natural increaser, although perhaps Robin could check to see if it's producing twin scapes from each bulb - if so, then the good increase in flower power in just two years may be partly down to the bulbs maturing and starting to double up flower production, and in  that case there may not be as many bulbs there as the number of flowers suggests. Either way, it will hopefully be a strong natural increaser, but a little judicious chipping as well can't hurt - it may (especially if it's a strong triploid, which many green-outer snowdrops are) turn out to respond very well indeed to chipping, producing big, flowering size bulbs very fast; which would be useful to know.

More generally, I know some forumists have been concerned that Robin may have been swamped with requests and advice re. 'Green Mile', and his last post does seem to confirm that. The high level of interest is of course understandable given the superb plant he's discovered, but I would like to hope that people can continue to feel free to post photos of highly desirable and very short-supply plants and bulbs without feeling that they will automatically be deluged with requests which it can be embarrassing to have to refuse. I'm sure everyone will agree with that, as otherwise people may feel reluctant to post such pictures, but I guess the problem is that no-one thinks their request or piece of well-meaning advice will become part of a flood. I didn't. I just hope Robin doesn't feel too overwhelmed by our interest.

 

[Alan_b]

Martin, I agree wholeheartedly.  I hope Robin can cope with the deluge of interest his snowdrops have excited.

[johnw]

I hope Robin can cope with the deluge of interest his snowdrops have excited.

Seconded.

johnw