Erythronium 2009

[Rodger Whitlock]

Assorted comments on the discussion so far.

There are a number of geographic races of E. dens-canis that are often given specific status: Ee. japonicum, sibiricum, caucasicum, perhaps others. It is a good question whether these taxa are interfertile (including with the typical form from Europe). I will have to ask Gerry Allen if she's looked into this.

In addition, the eastern American erythronium species (Ee. albidum, americanum, umbilicatum, and others) are clearly more closely related to E. dens-canis than to the western American species. One wonders if this group can be hybridized with Eurasiatic erythroniums.

To answer Diane's question about propagation of erythronium by breaking the bulb, as you know erythronium bulbs are similar in shape to a dog's tooth (hence the specific epithet "dens-canis"). You simply break the bulb into pieces across its width, like a dog knocking the tip off a fang. I suppose that the pieces are best left unplanted for a few days in order to callus over and (hopefully) be less prone to rot. Note that I have not myself tried this method.

In my own garden, E. hendersonii grows well and sets seed in reasonable quantities, but as I grow other western American erythronium species, I pool all the seed from them and send it in as "lucky dip, may include chance hybrids." E. hendersonii is unique among the western American species in its cold violet color. Mine were grown from seed, probably from the Alpine Garden Club of BC, and the seed is likely to have been of wild origin. They vary from near white to quite a pronounced color, but none is pure white. All have purple anthers.

I suspect Diane's difficulty with growing E. hendersonii is to be attributed to her lean sandy soil, compared with my dense, clay-rich soil. I have noticed many times in the bulb literature a tendency to confuse summer dry with "sandy soil" when in fact many bulbs prefer a good stiff clay, but one that dries out in summer. Bulbs in general also need feeding: if a plant is going to develop a storage organ full of starches, it needs a lot of food during the growing season. Bulbs are not plants of lean impoverished soils. Thus many bulbs prefer a clay soil which retains nutrients well.

And finally as for hybridization: the advice I've seen for would-be plant breeders is, first, to have a clear idea of what you are trying to achieve; then, second, to work on only one character at a time. The latter advice is apropos of trying to combine a number of different characters all at once. it's worth mentioning that Luther Burbank's methods (which I've described before) involved simply interplanting as diverse a population of plants as possible from whatever genus is of interest, from as many different sources as possible, and as many species as possible, then when the F1 generation reached maturity selecting out of it only those plants that most differed from the norm (if there can be a norm in a heterogenous crowd!), and using those as parents of an F2 generation. He let the bees do his pollination. And he ruthlessly destroyed the reject seedlings.

I rather suspect that line breeding as practiced by many plant breeders is something of an illusion. Every plant breeder I've ever read about admits to destroying the vast majority of seedlings, a practice which isn't very different from Burbank's method.

[Susan Band]

Ed, sorry I will have to wait until the spring before I can look again. I can't remember if they were yellow or a pale lilac just that they were not the usual dark colour.
Diane, I have added a picture that I use in my talks to explain how when you break an  Erythronium bulb it still grows. I don't use this as a propergation method myself as I find most bulbs bulk up themselves.
Susan

[Diane Whitehead]

Susan,

Thanks for the photo.  I will try a few.  I guess winter would be the time?  or very early spring?  And have you tried chopping into smaller pieces?   Or perhaps that was an accidental break.

[Guff]

Should I even bother planting these two bulbs or do they look ok? They look all dried up.
Japoni
Lilac

[Maggi Young]

Give them a little soak overnight in some just-warm water, Guff: they may plump up a treat. I would certainly plant them after that... a soak can be a successful restorative

[Guff]

Maggi, thanks. I was going to send them back, I will try the water soak and see what they do. I will send the pictures to the mail order company.

The below picture are the first lot I bought from a different company. These were/are plump and big bulbs compared to the above dried out ones. That is why I question these being any good.

[Rodger Whitlock]

Should I even bother planting these two bulbs or do they look ok? They look all dried up.
Japoni
Lilac

They look pretty far gone to me. If you decide to try to grow them, soak them as Maggi suggested, first in water until they plump up, then in a solution of some systemic fungicide if you have any. Pot up in pure washed sand and keep them barely damp.

Myself, I think I'd send them back.

Not only Erythronium dens-canis and its varieties, but Leucojum vernum and Eranthis hyemalis are also often received so badly desiccated that they are dead.

[Guff]

Roger, I agree they are bad.

They have been in water for a couple hours or so, and the Lilac is turning to mush. The black spot that you can see in the photo is rotten and now there is a big hole.

I'm disappointed with this last lot. First they told me what I wanted was in stock, so I send in payment. I received 3 bulbs of 5, and two are junk. One would think they would know what they are sending out are no good? I just don't get it.

[Maggi Young]

Very disappointing for you, Guff.
Sadly it is just a fact of life that not every business works to as high a set of scruples as we would hope. 

[Guff]

Maggi, It seems every year I have some problem with something that I had ordered. I'm about to give up.

I planted out the Japonicum, didn't take any pictures. I won't be surprised if nothing shows. I should hear back in a few days from the mail order company.

[Lesley Cox]

If they came from a nursery/supplier in that condition I'd be sending them back straight away. And I'd have some stern words to say as well. Finding a couple of dried up bulbs on one's own potting bench is one thing (I do it often, no-one but myself to blame) but bulbs from a nusery should be in good and healthy condition.

But never give up Guff. The world is full of wonderful surprises, especially the world of a gardener.

[Guff]

Lesley, I agree.

Well I should have my replacements maybe tomorrow. They still state what I received are good, and thats what they are suppose to look like..........NOT.

If they look the same, I am going to send them right back.

Where is the best place to get bulbs.  Susan do you export your bulbs to USA?

[Diane Whitehead]

The best place for bulbs is a place where I can choose
my own.  I pick through the bins and make sure I get double or triple-
nosed bulbs, make sure none has a bit of mould or any peculiar
looking tunics.

Much better than buying dry bulbs, though, is buying them flowering in pots.
Then I get to choose interesting flowers.  I can do this both at nearby
specialty nurseries and in front of the grocery store where I have spotted
exciting variations in snowdrops, and have chosen the bluest biggest-
flowered Anemone blandas, among other bulbs.

[Paul T]

Diane,

If only we had those sorts of nurseries around here!    It would be a very expensive place for me to visit!!! 

[Rodger Whitlock]

If only we had those sorts of nurseries around here!    It would be a very expensive place for me to visit!!! 

Diane isn't kidding about grocery stores here having good plants. I found a golden leaved form of Pinellia tripartita, 'Dragon Tails', at one here. Only the one plant and I've never seen it anywhere else, though it's from one of the big wholesale nurseries with a fancy illustrated label.

I always stop to take a look because you never know what they'll have.