Epimedium - various threads gathered together here

[TheOnionMan]

Gerrit, nice davidii hybrid, this species has lots of potential for hybridizing. I like that your plant has large flowers.  I grow 3 or 4 forms of E. davidii, one of the best for size and shape of flowers, and continual flowers, is one called E. davidii "Wolong Selections", a selection found and introduced by Darrell Probst, notable for it's small plant size but good-sized bright yellow flowers.

One of my breeding goals, is to produce dwarf compact plants, so your post strikes a nerve with me.  I like the 'Violet Nanum' or 'Freya' cultivar of E. grandiflorum, one I have not heard of before, but find it listed in the following two links:

E. grandiflorum 'Violet Nanum'
Koen Van Poucke's site: http://www.koenvanpoucke.be/english/epimedium_fotos.asp
...and under the name E. grandiflorum "Nanum Freya"
http://forum.tuinadvies.be/forum_topic.php?hid=6&sid=7&page=41&tid=24347

For small size, I am working with E. x youngianum 'Liliputian'.  I have already shown some of my variable seedlings from this, almost all of which are also *evergreen* as they have crossed with one of several potential evergreen species such as E. pubigerum, E. x sasakii, and E. sempervirens.  One seedling in particular has tiny concise evergreen growth, it is perhaps the smallest Epimedium I've seen, but it remains to be seen whether it'll get bigger.  Here's a link to some summer photos of several 'Liliputian' evergreen hybrids, and I have uploaded a photo of it taken yesterday on a day when it was sunny but -5C.  Also uploaded is a photo of another evergreen 'Liliputian' hybrid that is about twice as big (but still a small plant), with the divergent and fall-winter downturned leaf petioles which are characteristic of E. sempervirens.
Tiny E. x youngianum 'Liliputian' hybrids
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=4769.msg170304#msg170304

And here's a small E. davidii hybrid, with tiny yellow flowers, which I shared on SRGC earlier this year. And I uploaded a photo showing what it looks like yesterday on a frozen sunny day.  It's not particularly great, the flowers too small, but I'll use it for further hybridization.  This seedling came from the E. davidii EMR form.
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=4769.msg151111#msg151111

Other small ones to consider:  E. grandiflorum var. higoense, and in particular cultivars 'Confetti' and 'Saturn' (Saturn is one of the tiniest of all eppies), E. rhizomatosum (needs to be "tamed" by crossing with a clumping non-spreading epimedium, E. rhizomatosum grows only a few centimeters tall but spreads too aggressively; I have uploaded a photo showing a hybrid seedling in it's 3rd year this summer, still not flowered yet, and staying very small and not running), and E. ilicifolium makes a tight, dwarf mound with flowers produced on horizontal stems, so I plan on using it in my hybridization program too (the link above also shows E. ilicifolium).

[WimB]

Mark and Gerrit,

I like the dwarfer plants too.

Like Gerrit, I grow E. grfl. 'Nanum' and E. grfl 'Freya' (Syn.: 'Violet Nanum' and 'Nanum Freya'). This last one was an introduction from Elizabeth Strangman in 1959.
I also grow E. grfl. var. higoense 'Saturn' and I bought E. youngianum 'Liliputian' this year.
For me, most grandiflorums and youngianums are okay as rock garden plants but the ones you both mentioned are of course the champions of dwarfness...until Mark starts selling his dwarf hybrids of course  I love your Lilliputian hybrids by the way...

[TheOnionMan]

Mark and Gerrit,

I like the dwarfer plants too.

Like Gerrit, I grow E. grfl. 'Nanum' and E. grfl 'Freya' (Syn.: 'Violet Nanum' and 'Nanum Freya'). This last one was an introduction from Elizabeth Strangman in 1959.
I also grow E. grfl. var. higoense 'Saturn' and I bought E. youngianum 'Liliputian' this year.
For me, most grandiflorums and youngianums are okay as rock garden plants but the ones you both mentioned are of course the champions of dwarfness...until Mark starts selling his dwarf hybrids of course  I love your Lilliputian hybrids by the way...

Thanks Wim, I have to keep "the vision" .  The intriguing aspect of the Liliputian OP crosses so far, is that most are evergreen and look like tiny sempervirens or pubigerum plants. 

Maybe E. grfl 'Freyna' never crossed the pond so to speak, surprised to learn it is such an old cultivar!  Seems like a good one to consider, for the dark flowers (most other dwarf grandiflorums are pale).

Regarding E. grandiflorum 'Nanum', curious thing about this selection, it slowly but surely gets bigger and bigger over the years.  In the first couple years we can admire the very small proportions and tiny droplet leaves, but my oldest plant which is planted in rich woodland soil, eventually got larger, it reached 24" across x 12" tall (60 cm x 30 cm) this year, whereas a younger 3 year plant of the same cultivar (see 2 photos) is 12" across x 5-6" tall (30 cm x 10-15 cm) so far, planted 3 years ago.  Even in the larger size, it is still smaller than most grandiflorums.

E. grfl. var. higoense 'Saturn' has been in my garden 6 years, and it stays tiny.  Two photos uploaded, one showing a general view to see the much larger size of other grandiflorum and epi species around the tiny 'Saturn' in the center, then a closeup of 'Saturn'.  Never got a good shot of it in bloom this year, it flowers later than many other grandiflorums.

Ran outside to take a couple more pics, sunny but -10 C, showing the dwarf E. rhizomatosum non-spreading 3yr hybrid in winter black color (and slightly frosted), a dwarf sempervirens 3yr hybrid seedling, and E. ilicifolium, a really compact plant that could be used to introduce really interesting foliage to dwarf evergreen hybrids.

[gerrit]

Mark, Wim
Well, much to think about, again,it hurts my brains. You guys have so much more experience with the genus.
1.The best thing for the rock garden seems to me E.x youngianum " Lilliputian". That picture, Mark with 5 seedlings. I agree with Wim, you should raise the best (left under) and sell it for many $ to us. I googled for availebility, but couldn't find in Europe one to sell.
2.Violet Nanum: She was difficult to me. I grew her in a trough, wouldn't grow and flower, like many E., I found out. (as well as in pots)
   She was also suffering from heat and sun, even during a small time. (We had this summer some days in July with real bad weather. 35C)
3.The same happened to Saturn and Bandit: burned. Round shaped light green foliage, can not be exposed to the sun. To bad, because I just saw the beauty on the photo.
5. Gr.Nanum: What a beauty's. Oke, large but nevertheless dwarfs.
6.Ilicifolium. Mine is still a small plant, but with high potential I guess. Those leaves are wunderful. A compact plant for the rock gartden.
7.Your seedlings,Mark. Seedlings from EMR. Mine is called CPC. What I saw on your picture is not the same plant as mine. Excuse me, but I don't like yours at all, when I compare it. The plant is not compact enough and the stems rise high, the flowers are scattered. Before you told me, I had the same idea, to use my plant for hybridization. Imagine, from every wellknown E a dwarf form.
8.Sutchuenense, perhaps another small plant.
9.Rhizomatosum and Sempervirens: cultivars I don't know. Seem small enough on the pictures.
So all together we have   enough  species to fill a small rock garden.
Gerrit

[Geo F-W]

Yes Mark, that's a possibility, but I don't remember seeing any E.chlorandrum at Thierry's nursery...
Besides, I think it's a very attractive species, I like the pale yellow color of the flowers, much more than the yellow of E.rhizomatosum for example, a little more aggressive. I love soft yellow, it's a vernal color. And its foliage isn't too bad either.
I don't grow it yet and I'm a little suspicious because I've seen E.chlorandrum (or sold as such) with yellow flowers and not pale yellow, less attractive (very subjective), I'll try it next year, a Koen's one.

I love your 'lilliputian', it's really funny! But a little inconspicuous
Where did you get your 'Lilliputian' Wim?
And I like a lot your davidii EMR seedling, I'm never disappointed with davidii's hybrids, it's a very good species, easily hybridizable and well fertile.

Is someone had a several years experience with Epimedium myrianthum?
And with Epimedium baieali-guizhouense? I planted it in may, last year, it has not flowered for now.

I'm a little disappointed with Epimedium acuminatum 'Night Mistress'.
Here, planted since two years, it's not really floriferous and the flowers are somewhat hidden by foliage, but maybe it doesn't like the place where I planted it, or so, it takes a little longer to settle here properly, two years, it's just to get an opinion. Idem for E.sutchuenense.

The only "dwarf" cultivars that I grow are of Japanese origin, however, some reaching 30cm, planted since this year, I step back on them.

'Hagaromo', small : http://www.pepinieredesavettes.com/pepiniere/epimedium-hagoromo-,268,theme==0,page==1?noclear

'Koki', not floriferous this year and the flowers are too big : http://www.pepinieredesavettes.com/pepiniere/epimedium-koki-,4,theme==0,page==1?noclear

'Tanima No Yuki', a youngianum I think, very small : http://www.pepinieredesavettes.com/pepiniere/epimedium-tanima-no-yuki-,6,theme==0,page==2?noclear

and my favourite, 'Suzuka', evergreen for now and with beautifull colored foliage in spring : http://www.pepinieredesavettes.com/pepiniere/epimedium-suzuka-,197,theme==0,page==2?noclear

'Fukujuji' is a beautifull cultivar with wavy petals, but higher than 30cm here : http://www.pepinieredesavettes.com/pepiniere/epimedium-fukujuji-,211,theme==0,page==1?noclear

[WimB]

Mark, Wim

1.The best thing for the rock garden seems to me E.x youngianum " Lilliputian". That picture, Mark with 5 seedlings. I agree with Wim, you should raise the best (left under) and sell it for many $ to us. I googled for availebility, but couldn't find in Europe one to sell.
2.Violet Nanum: She was difficult to me. I grew her in a trough, wouldn't grow and flower, like many E., I found out. (as well as in pots)
   She was also suffering from heat and sun, even during a small time. (We had this summer some days in July with real bad weather. 35C)
3.The same happened to Saturn and Bandit: burned. Round shaped light green foliage, can not be exposed to the sun. To bad, because I just saw the beauty on the photo.
9.Rhizomatosum and Sempervirens: cultivars I don't know. Seem small enough on the pictures.
Gerrit

I don't think 'Lilliputian' is available for sale anywhere in Europe. I bought it directly from Probst who introduced it.
'Freya' or 'Violet Nanum' is not the easiest, she despises direct sunlight and seems very susceptible to vine weevil.
I grow 'Saturn' in full shade too, actually most of my Epi's are in full shade except for E. warleyense which I've tried planting in full sun last year...I'll see what it does next year.
Almost forgot: E. diphyllum stays small too.

I don't grow or know E. sutchuense, so I don't know how this species behaves in cultivation.

E. rhizomatosum crawls all over the place, so this species is not very appropriate for a rock garden. E. sempervirens is okay, can go to 60 cm height though. I'm still looking for E. sempervirens 'Candy Hearts', which is a real stunner.

Where did you get your 'Lilliputian' Wim?

Is someone had a several years experience with Epimedium myrianthum?
And with Epimedium baieali-guizhouense? I planted it in may, last year, it has not flowered for now.


The only "dwarf" cultivars that I grow are of Japanese origin, however, some reaching 30cm, planted since this year, I step back on them.

I don't think 'Lilliputian' is available for sale anywhere in Europe. I bought it directly from Probst who introduced it.

Don't grow E. myrianthum or E. baieali-guizhouense myself, so I can't help you there.

The Japanese cultivars are not easy to find in Europe. For the moment I grow the following (some small, some bigger):

E. ‘Akebono’
E. ‘Amanogawa’
E. ‘Beni Chidori’
E. ‘Beni-Kujaku’
E. ‘Hagoromo’
E. ‘Hakubai’
E. ‘Kaguya Hime’
E. ‘Shiho’
E. x youngianum ‘Azusa’
E. x youngianum ‘Tama Botan’

[TheOnionMan]

Much to discuss, so please excuse the length of this post.

Gerrit:
1.  The grandiflorums such as the ones mentioned like Violet Nanum, Saturn, Bandit, and most other grandiflorums, and many youngianums, all suffer from high heat, sun, and drought.  This summer was a test year, July and August with most days 32-35 C, and record drought; it revealed which were drought resistant and which were not.  I learned a lot from this experience.  My overriding hybridization goal is to introduce drought-resistant genes into all hybrids I might create, the primary contributor being E. sempervirens (for proven drought resistance and for other reasons).

2.  E. davidii EMR - the EMR indicates the early Martyn Rix EMR 4125 introduction of E. davidii from Sichuan Province, China, into cultivation.  My hybrid was merely a spontaneous self-sown garden hybrid with E. brevicornu, it gets the small flower size and fuzzy stems and flower pedicels from brevicornu.  It is okay that you don't like it, I agree it is not a winner and certainly not worth introducing, but unlike other nondescript seedlings that I give away to local garden clubs, this one is distinct on account of the "boxy" or "chunky" flower shape, better flowering than EMR, and better clumping habit... so it might play into further hybridization efforts here, so I kept it.  In terms of E. davidii, the spring and summer of 2010 I did manually hybridize each and every flower on the superior E. davidii "Wolong Selections" over a long period and have 2 flats of seed sown.

Geoffrey
First of all, I noticed from your new avatar image, you're a young fellow... fantastic to see this level of interest in young people these days.  I started gardening when I was 8 or 9, and was serious by the time I was 16; it is so encouraging to see young people involved with such endeavors (Wim, you're included, and Gerrit, there is still hope for us sage and slightly older types ).

3.  I wish I bought E. chlorandrum from Garden Vision when they had it offered a couple years ago, the photo showed it is the real plant, as one would expect from Darrell.  It is such an elegant species, which would be useful for hybridization.

4.  Thanks to links to your French site, I have not seen it before.  'Koki' looks like a grandiflorum, I don't know it. 'Tanima No Yuka' seems like a youngianum, but most attractive in flower, and the web site's small link indicates it has sensational red fall leaf color.  'Suzuka' has the distinct pink and white flower color of E. grandiflorum 'Princess Susan', but in a youngianum plant, nice.

Wim
5.  E. diphyllum, along with most grandiflorums and youngianums, they're dwarf in flower, but I find that the 2nd flush of leaves on all of these far exceed initial flowering height, and also far exceed dimensions reported in catalogs.  Are my conditions exceptionally rich, I don't think so.  But given room and little competition, many of these get larger than described.  E. x youngianum 'Tama Botan' for example reaches 20" across by 24" tall (50 cm x 60 cm), the mass of second flush foliage so exuberant to easily smother nearby plants.  There are not many E. diphyllum varieties, and maybe they are not as exuberant as some grandiflorums and youngianums, but the second foliar flush needs to be considered.

6.  E. sutchuenense is like E. leptorrhizum, it is a spreader with long underground stolons, and not a clumper.  Garden Vision is one of the few nurseries that reports this difference, essential in knowing how to place one's plants in the garden.  Personally, I prefer clumping types rather than the "runners" as they are much easier to plant to coexist with neighbors.  The aggressively running types of Epimedium, can be crossed with clumping types (grandiflorums, youngianums, many others) to "tame" the aggressive spreading.

7.  I grow regular E. sempervirens, and 12 E. sempervirens cultivars.  All are very drought resistant, all have shiny evergreen leaves, most have poor flowers (or at least, not very colorful ones), most are low-ish and spreading clumps, only a couple like E.s. 'Mars' are upright growers.  They often get to 12-16" (30-40 cm) and with leaves much larger than grandiflorums and youngianums, yet tend to "depress" in summer, fall and winter.  I believe it is one of the prime species for hybridization.  And yes, 'Candy Hearts' is fantastic, mostly as a foliage plant, and slow growing clump, I love it; and hybrids with it are also fascinating and almost always very good.

8.  So far as E. myrianthum and E. baieali-guizhouense, and sagittatum for that matter, Darrell tells me there are dozens of similar allied species in China, a taxonomically difficult group.  This year when I visited the nursery, I photographed these three and other similar allied species, but in my opinion they are negligible for flowers, and only worth growing for foliage.  But since there are so many other fantastic evergreen eppies with great evergreen foliage AND flowers, why bother with them??

9.  Wim, your list of Japanese cultivars, I have all except 'Hakubai' and 'Shiho'... there are so many cultivars out there, mostly youngianum types, many are slight variations on a theme, all are lovely.  My favorite among those you list are 'Azusa', 'Hagoromo', and 'Amanogawa', the latter being a most distinctive plant quite unlike the others.  A recent trend I have noticed, is Japanese cultivars coming out everywhere that are only slight variations, when in fact, so much more could be done with epimediums.

Mark

[TheOnionMan]

In support of the previous post, here are some photos:

1    E. x youngianum 'Liliputian' - showing the foliage.  The cultivar is known for having some speckled foliage.  Notice the much larger grandiflorum neighbors flanking the plant on each side.

2    One of the few non-evergreen self-sown hybrids of E. x youngianum 'Liliputian' that showed up, this one is very small, although with leaves larger than E. grandiflorum 'Nanum' as seen on the right, the foliage on this hybrid has red speckling like 'Liliputian'.  The flowers are tiny light pink spurless things, probably crossed with a nearby pink E. diphyllum type.

3-5  E. x youngianum 'Hagoromo' - a most distinctive cultivar, short when flowering with elegant narrow pink and white flowers and red-burnished new foliage. Photo 4 shows the 2nd flush of foliage starting, and photo 5 shows fall color.

6-7  E. sempervirens 'Candy Hearts' - spring views of foliage and pale flowers.

8-9  E. sempervirens 'Candy Hearts' on the left, E. x youngianum 'Capella' on the right, at a couple points during the summer.

10   E. x youngianum 'Hanagaruma' - I mention this one because it is one of the finest youngianum types, and I feel that it has such good character; floriferous and well-presented flowers, neat down-turned small leaves that are crisply fringed and crimped. 

[TheOnionMan]

What do you all think of hybridizing with E. campanulatum.  It is a distinctive one to be sure, probably better as a specimen in the garden rather than in a pot, because of its splaying stems of little yellow spurless cups.  I rather like it.  I think it would look great planted on a berm or atop a wall, to get a better view of the thimble flowers.

It is highly fertile and makes a load of seed.  I did mark a couple stems with tape, and tried making crosses on those stems, and sowed the seed.  The attempt was more just to see what any hybrids from this might look like.

[gerrit]

hi Mark,
Nice avatar. Now I can see, how you create new hybrids. With Photoshop.

Gerrit

[WimB]

What do you all think of hybridizing with E. campanulatum.  It is a distinctive one to be sure, probably better as a specimen in the garden rather than in a pot, because of its splaying stems of little yellow spurless cups.  I rather like it.  I think it would look great planted on a berm or atop a wall, to get a better view of the thimble flowers.

It is highly fertile and makes a load of seed.  I did mark a couple stems with tape, and tried making crosses on those stems, and sowed the seed.  The attempt was more just to see what any hybrids from this might look like.

Mark,

Don't grow it myself but I like that one. It's a clumper, isn't it?
Would be interesting to see hybrids with bigger flowers displayed in the way they are in E. campanulatum. With which other species/cultivars did you cross?

[Geo F-W]

Ok, thanks Wim, so I'll wait that 'Lilliputian' be available in Europe I think, if it is one day, or when I will be able to go at Darrell's nursery...

Mark, what patience you have to manually hybridize each flower of your davidii! Did you have many hybrids of it?
This year, I crossed (?) my three davidii's hybrids (#31, #39, #43), we'll see the result in two or three years...

Well, at 29yo, my students tell me that I'm already "old", they've their own references. But I see there is still a lot of young people who are actively interested in this stuff, botany (my hobby), horticulture, floras and ecosystems around the world, it is reassuring. I started seriously gardening when I was 18 with my first "real" garden, I have many friends who are botanists or nurserymen, it helps.

The Pépinière des Avettes is a small nursery run by a charming young and dynamic woman (very pretty too , she's also beekeeper. ), Marion Basset, which works in collaboration with a botanist and photographer, Cedric Basset, head gardener of the Botanical Garden of Lyon. They often go on expedition in Asia (South America I believe in preparation),they came off a month's journey in Japan in June. They're really nice and interesting. Cedric has several sites including this one : http://www.asianflora.com/ and recently published a small book of asian flora.

Thank you for your opinion about Epimedium myrianthum and E.baieali-guizhouense, and so, yes, thankfully there are plenty of others! I think that Epimedium truncatum isn't very interesting either?

Your Epimedium campanulatum is lovely, I knew it, but have never seen it in real life, if in addition it is highly fertile, it interests me so much. It looks a bit like Epimedium ecalcaratum, no? In the same kind, another I'd like to see is Epimedium platypetalum.

Another question I ask myself is whether there is a gross difference between Epimedium brevicornu and Epimedium brevicornu f.rotundatum? Size of the plant?

And I would like to see Epimedium stellulatum 'Long Leaf Form'.

I had not seen your message Nicole! Salut! We've met, I think, on the forum on the SAJA on which you intervene, especially for the International Rock Gardener.

[Maggi Young]

on the forum on the SAJA

Nicole, Geoffrey, tell me, where can one see the SAJA Forum?
 I did not know it existed.... I cannot find it from the SAJJA website....

[Geo F-W]

Hello Maggi,

Well, in fact, I jumped the gun, this is not the SAJA forum, it doesn't exist unfortunately, you're right.
I talk about a forum related to it because some contributors are members of the SAJA. Sorry for the mistake.

[fleurbleue]

Hello Maggi,
Some SAJA members post on : http://plantes-passion.forumactif.fr/