Epimedium - various threads gathered together here

[Maggi Young]

Hi Nicole, yes, I know that pleasant forum for so many happy French growers 
I was hoping that SAJA had made some innovation... the Forums of the other plant societies are such fun......

[TheOnionMan]

Mark, what patience you have to manually hybridize each flower of your davidii! Did you have many hybrids of it?
This year, I crossed (?) my three davidii's hybrids (#31, #39, #43), we'll see the result in two or three years...

For the first time in my adult life, after 32 years working, I found myself unemployed, so I finally got to experience an entire spring in all its glory.  After an hour or two in the morning checking job boards, sending out a resume or two, there wasn't much more I could do in that regard, so I would spend 1-2 hours each day hand hybridizing Epimedium .  E. davidii flowers sporadically over a long period, into summer, so almost every day was the fun challenge: "ok, what epimediums are blooming today that I can cross with davidii".
I sowed two flats of hybrid seed, maybe 200-300 seed, but we need to wait to see what sort of germination occurs.

Geoffrey, what did you cross your E. davidii with?

Thank you for your opinion about Epimedium myrianthum and E.baieali-guizhouense, and so, yes, thankfully there are plenty of others! I think that Epimedium truncatum isn't very interesting either?

E. truncatum is interesting for its foliage; it has smooth, glossy simple leaves; a rather unique look to the plant.  The flowers are held in clouds of minuscule white blue-budded flowers.  I would see this species as valuable for further hybridizing, although it would take several generations of hybrids to overcome the minute flower size.  I don't grow it, it is near the bottom on my list of desideratum.

Your Epimedium campanulatum is lovely, I knew it, but have never seen it in real life, if in addition it is highly fertile, it interests me so much. It looks a bit like Epimedium ecalcaratum, no? In the same kind, another I'd like to see is Epimedium platypetalum.

Those are the other two with similar spurless or near-spurless yellow thimble flowers.  I don't grow E. ecalcaratum, from photos I've seen, it grows more upright and has spiny-edged leaves.  I also don't know if it spreads or is a clumper.  I do grow E. platypetalum, but I have it in a terrible spot; too dry on a steep embankment, I didn't pay attention when I planted it, forgetting that it is a spreader with annual 8-12" (20-30 cm) rhizomes, so it spread itself into my Iris henryi.  When I finally dig up my large patch of Iris henryi to divide it, I will extricate the E. platypetalum and plant it where it can spread.  Garden Vision Nursery has large swathes of this epimedium planted and it is delightful.  E. campanulatum is a clumper, so better behaved in the garden and of more interest to me for hybridization.
E. ecalcaratum
http://www.johnjearrard.co.uk/plants/epimedium/epimediumecalcaratum/epimediumecalcaratum.html

Another question I ask myself is whether there is a gross difference between Epimedium brevicornu and Epimedium brevicornu f.rotundatum? Size of the plant?

I don't know the difference, I only have the type plant.  I consider it among the top 10 Epimedium species. In photos I have seen, I don't really see any obvious difference in f. rotundatum.  I'm assuming the forma is so named because of the foliage, but maybe it it for some other subtle characteristic.  On the JohnJearrard site, the form is referred to as a "smaller form of the species".  Do you grow E. brevicornu?
http://www.johnjearrard.co.uk/plants/epimedium/epimediumbrevicornurotundatum/epimediumbrevicornurotundatum.html

And I would like to see Epimedium stellulatum 'Long Leaf Form'.

E. stellulatum "Long Leaf Forms"
http://www.johnjearrard.co.uk/plants/epimedium/epimediumstellulatumlongleavedform/epimediumstellulatumlongleavedform.html
I just grow the regular form, and a very fine species it is.  The foliage is low growing and evergreen ( a wide low wide clumper), with strong veining, and cauline foliage on the spring flower stems that are on fire with red color.  Flowers over a very long time, clouds of small white stars.  The long leaf forms are supposed to have leaves the same size, just narrower and more spiny edged. It is reported as exceptionally hardy.  I wasn't in a rush to get the long leaf form, nor the cultivar 'Wudang Star', because in the garden scheme of things, they are more or less similar to the plamt I already had.  It took a while for the regular form to bulk up and finally make an impressive plant, so these two forms go back on my want list.

[TheOnionMan]

Found my photos of Epimedium truncatum taken at Garden Vision Epimediums in May 2010; this one should give an idea about what this species looks like.

[gerrit]

Mark,
What a beautiful display.That proud Arisaema sikokianum surrounded by a cloud of yellow epimediumflowers. Breathtaking.

Gerrit

[gerrit]

Hello Mark,

With much interest I followed in these pages your efforts to realize better plants, for instance: "everblooming"E., or E. with bronze foliage.Could you explane to me the technique of handpollination? I have some questions which bother me: How to choose the right moment, How to avoid neighbour plants get involved. Is it possible to cover pollinated plants, Which of two must be pollinated or both. When harvesting (after 40 days?) I hope to make crosses with E.davidii dwarf form. How to choose the other parent? Just availability of blooming E. at the moment? and so on.

Gerrrit.

[TheOnionMan]

With much interest I followed in these pages your efforts to realize better plants, for instance: "everblooming"E., or E. with bronze foliage.Could you explane to me the technique of handpollination? I have some questions which bother me: How to choose the right moment, How to avoid neighbour plants get involved. Is it possible to cover pollinated plants, Which of two must be pollinated or both. When harvesting (after 40 days?) I hope to make crosses with E.davidii dwarf form. How to choose the other parent? Just availability of blooming E. at the moment? and so on.

Gerrrit.

First of all, anything I might say here is based on just my experience this year, as I had never tried hybridizing epimedium before,  That said, I did spend up to 2 hours every day throughout April, May, and June, and through July for late bloomers.  I leaned a lot. It remains to be seen how successful I might have been with this exercise.  I wish I had taken photos of the actual hand pollinating process, although the camera I use is not good with close-up photography.

How to choose the right moment:
On fully open flowers, on most species the anthers open to release pollen by late morning.  Some flowers take two days to fully open.  Touch a stamen to see if any yellow pollen (green in a few species) sticks to your fingertip, it's ready if it does stick.  Darrell Probst actually uses his finger, puts pollen on it, goes to the target parent, and presses the stigma against the pollen.  What I like to do, is pick some flowers with ripe pollen, then fold back the sepals and petals to reveal the stamens & anthers and pinch them together into a bundle, like a tiny paintbrush ready to swab the stigma on the flowers of the target plant.

How to avoid neighbour plants get involved:
I took no precautions to isolate plants, nor do I have a greenhouse for more controlled pollination/hybridization.  However, I give my "eppies" enough room to grow into their own clumps, and if one gets out into the garden by mid or late morning, you have a good chance of catching the flowers when pollen is ready and the stigmas are receptive, and those efforts will probably result in a high percentage of hand-made crosses versus bee-made crosses.

Is it possible to cover pollinated plants:
I suppose it would be possible to create some protective barriers with reemay or other suitable light weight material, to better guaranty no pollen contamination by bees, but for me, I couldn't be bothered.  Once a fresh stigma is dusted with pollen manually, it stands a pretty high chance that it will succeed.  And if I get a few surprises by bee pollination, I'm okay with the risk.

Which of two must be pollinated or both:
Good question, and it depends on what you are trying to achieve.  It also depends on what traits are strong or recessive, and much of that information will only be learned by trying it both ways.  Example, if pollen on E. x youngianum 'Liliputian' where put on a larger E. sempervirens cultivar, would the resulting plants show the very small plant size (I'm not sure, have not tried it that way yet), but I have seen first hand when 'Liliputian' is the seed parent, the small plant size comes through strongly.

How to choose the other parent? Just availability of blooming E. at the moment?
Another good question.  I have jotted down lots of notes, creating an informal plan of sorts, of characteristics I'd like to see in Epimedium, and set forth some personal hybridization objectives.  Part of it has to be pure experimentation, to see what the possibilities might be.  Part of what drives my goals is "what to avoid"... I think I'll scream is I see yet another white, pink, or rose Japanese hybrid youngianum type that looks just like 50 other youngianum types.  There is so much more that can be done.  So choose the pollen parent based on characteristics you would like to see realized in the offspring.  At peak Epimedium flowering season, you should have flower & pollen availability of most.  If I still have the opportunity time-wise to repeat the process this spring, I plan on saving pollen on some of the earliest types to pollinate some of the later types.

Later in the season, when only the few late blooming Epimedium are blooming, I will opportunistically go around and search out odd summer reblooms, such as E. grandiflorum 'Princess Susan' will often produce a few late blooms in June & July, to keep the process going.

This is the fun part of the gardening process, I can daydream endlessly about what the possibilities might be and what I want to try next.

And just for something pretty to look at, here's a photo of E. x youngianum 'Marchacos Sprite' at Garden Vision Epimediums, a lovely cultivar with neat dark-toned leaves.

[gerrit]

Thank you Mark for your long EPIstle. There is much to reflect of.

I think there will be some more questions according to your approach of hybridization. I will later contact you through this forum.
By the way, I think all these pages will become a kind of guide for epimedium beginners.

Gerrit.

[TheOnionMan]

Here's another one to consider, such simple elegance, E. x setosum (E. diphyllum x sempervirens), what might hybrids be like?

[gerrit]

Hi Mark,

In your reply #238 you showed us 4  photos of mixed hybrids seedlings. Many being hybrids with E."Dark Beauty". With what did you crossed them? Are you satisfied with them? Did you get what you wanted, or are they coincidental been pollinated?
What I see is, that the original plant looks better than the hybrids. Or am I wrong? Is it true, that seedlings are often weaker than the mother plant, who was cloned mostly by dividing. I have seen in my garden so often plants getting weaker and weaker after sowing year after year, until they disappear.

Gerrit.

[WimB]

What I see is, that the original plant looks better than the hybrids. Or am I wrong? Is it true, that seedlings are often weaker than the mother plant, who was cloned mostly by dividing. I have seen in my garden so often plants getting weaker and weaker after sowing year after year, until they disappear.
Gerrit.

Gerrit, sorry to answer in Mark's place but I know what you mean, that is most often the case with plants which are not growing in their optimal growing conditions...for example when trying to sow Meconopsis in Belgian/Dutch weather conditions  or when sowing alpine plants on sealevel, the seedlings get weaker and weaker year after year. The causes for this are probably infections, bad growing conditions, absence of natural pollinators...

I've never heard of that problem with Epi's. Mark's hybrids are just smaller because they are younger then his E. 'Dark beauty'...I think.
You can get undesirable hybrids but that is something different all together.

Mark, correct me if I'm wrong please.
It would be interesting to hear if you have come across this problem with Epi's.

[WimB]

Here's another one to consider, such simple elegance, E. x setosum (E. diphyllum x sempervirens), what might hybrids be like?

Very beautiful indeed, I don't grow this natural hybrid but it seems I should. 

I think Probst sells one x setosum hybrid: E. 'Buttered Popcorn (E. x setosum x davidii).
And E. x sasakii is a natural occuring hybrid between sempervirens and x setosum, so that should be (E.diphyllum x sempervirens)x sempervirens. I grow two forms of this hybrid since last year. So, no pictures yet but if I remember I will post some in Spring.

Have you tried to make hybrids with E. x setosum yet?

[TheOnionMan]

Gerrit, Wim answered correctly, Dark Beauty hybrids are just young 3-year seedlings. My original Dark Beauty is 12 years old.  I can fit about 120 seedlings under a Cornus kousa tree that you see in my reply #238, but in three years they fight for space. All were dug out and planted around in the garden where they have more space, not-so-special seedlings are given away to a local Garden Club sale. The whole bed was replanted this year with about 140 new 1-year & 2-year seedlings.

I have not heard of any problem with loss of vigor in Epi seedlings; I don't think Epi's have this problem.  In cases where Epi's struggle or show lack of vigor, it has typically been a culture problem (in my garden, being too dry can be a factor).

My 'Dark Beauty' hybrid seedlings were bee pollinated self-sown, found under the leaf canopy of my main plant, I label them indicating which plant they were found under, then planted out in a bed.  I get to guess what the pollen parent might be based on observed characteristics.  I was pleased to see that highly colorful leaf hybrids would appear, so the dark leaf coloring passes to the progeny, although none were nearly as dark as 'Dark Beauty'.  You'll see that the seedlings are all very pale flowered, most likely crossed with neighboring E. grandiflorum 'Larchmont', 'Pseudo-Larchmont', 'Queen Esta', and f. flavescens 'La Rocaille'. This spring, I did attempt hand hybridizing 'Dark Beauty', the pollen parents were a variety of distinctly different and deeper color Epi's (mostly yellow flowered types), as an exercise to see if I get hybrids with dark coffee foliage and other color flowers.

Wim, I had forgotten about E. 'Buttered Popcorn' being an E. x setosum x davidii hybrid (not a deliberate cross, but yet another spontaneous hybrid from Harold Epstein's garden).  I have 'Buttered Popcorn', and it flowered okay, probably needs another year to become established. The one called E. 'Sunshowers' is a wonderful and totally unique soft yellow and white flowered plant (I posted 3 photos of it in bloom earlier in this topic), here's a link:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=4769.msg149483#msg149483

I did spend some time making crosses with E. x setosum, once again, mostly just as an experiment.  It makes lots of seed, and I see this plant having a lot of potential.  It also tends to be drought tolerant, due to sempervirens background.

I have three forms of E. x sasakii, I've shown photos before, but here they are together. Interesting little plants, small slow growing, with small pale flowers, not very showy but with interesting evergreen oval foliage that is often colored red.  The best one is Darrell's selection called 'Melody', which is semi-showy in flower.  I'm not planning on using these for hybridization.  I'm curious to know how they grow for you and what you think of them.

[WimB]

I have three forms of E. x sasakii, I've shown photos before, but here they are together. Interesting little plants, small slow growing, with small pale flowers, not very showy but with interesting evergreen oval foliage that is often colored red.  The best one is Darrell's selection called 'Melody', which is semi-showy in flower.  I'm not planning on using these for hybridization.  I'm curious to know how they grow for you and what you think of them.

Mark, one of the forms I have is twice as heigh as a normal E. x sasakii. It was traded with a Japanese priest (not by me), so I don't think it is available anywhere "in the west".

[TheOnionMan]

Mark, one of the forms I have is twice as heigh as a normal E. x sasakii. It was traded with a Japanese priest (not by me), so I don't think it is available anywhere "in the west".

Wim, it doesn't surprise me there are more forms of this natural hybrid in Japan.  Do you have a photo of your plant?  What is your opinion of that plant?

[WimB]

Mark, one of the forms I have is twice as heigh as a normal E. x sasakii. It was traded with a Japanese priest (not by me), so I don't think it is available anywhere "in the west".

Wim, it doesn't surprise me there are more forms of this natural hybrid in Japan.  Do you have a photo of your plant?  What is your opinion of that plant?

No pic, I'm sorry. I might be able to get a picture from the person I got it from...or else next year. This form seems to be a lot more vigorous than the normal form but like I said I only have them since last year and what I'm telling you comes from the experience of the person who gave it to me.
For the rest it has the same pale flowers and red young foliage as the average E. x sasakii.

I don't think it can bring something special into a cross that you can't get from another species or cultivar.