Epimedium - various threads gathered together here

[WimB]

I don't have a very large garden Wim, and not enough shady places in it, so I have to be selective. When I moved I gave away some of the deciduous and kept the Chinese sp./evergreens because that's what interesting me, not just the flowers. Together with Helleborus and few others these Epimediums are among few plants that retain nice foliage in the winter.
Cold wise I think all would be fine but it's also the summer heat to consider, which can be awful here, so they really need a part-shaded location in the garden.

I will try and buy a few more species, meanwhile I am growing from seeds as much as I can from stellulatum, acuminatum, lishihchenii, 'Amber Queen' and davidii.

Ah, I see...summer heat is not to their like indeed, same over here! When you move to a smaller garden you need to be very picky about what you take with you, don't really know what I would choose... 

Here's some answers re: the davidii, both from people who have seen them in the wild:

Koen Van Poucke: The origin is important, if it didn't originate from seed in the wild, it might be a hybrid which originated in a garden. In nature Epi's are very variable too. You'd need to key this one out based on the other characteristics (leaf,...) too.

Marc Libert (Botanical Garden university of Ghent): Some people (amongst whom Darrell Probst) want to treat E davidi and E ecalcaratum as one species. There are more intermediary forms with semi-developed spurs. There are some other rearrangements in Epimedium, btw, see here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4432230/

[Gabriela]

Wim,
Everyone agrees on the variability of Epimedium species/populations in the wild, and Mikinori Ogisu showed just that with the plate of E. ecalcaratum flowers.
Yours may be a hybrid, hard to tell, in any case shouldn't be called 'davidii spurless' - adds to the confusion.

That's a good article, thanks for showing. The Chinese botanists no doubt have full access to the many and various Epimedium populations (that is if the habitats have not been destroyed yet) and to herbaria specimens.
In the coming years probably there will be more names revisions/new ones. Unfortunately people/plant nurseries are always reluctant to change labels, so…

Re - wanting to treat davidii and ecalcaratum as a one species, I am afraid they would need to come out with outstanding arguments for it - a  revision of the spurless Epimediums from Campanulatae group was published recently (2017).
http://phytokeys.pensoft.net/articles.php?id=11640

[WimB]

Yours may be a hybrid, hard to tell, in any case shouldn't be called 'davidii spurless' - adds to the confusion.

Agreed, but it shouldn't be named ecalcaratum either... a number/description or a cultivar name would be of better use, but I'll leave that to Gerrit, who is the one who received it as such.

That's a good article, thanks for showing. The Chinese botanists no doubt have full access to the many and various Epimedium populations (that is if the habitats have not been destroyed yet) and to herbaria specimens.
In the coming years probably there will be more names revisions/new ones. Unfortunately people/plant nurseries are always reluctant to change labels, so…

I'd love to see the variability of the Epimediums in the wild in real life too...maybe one day

Re - wanting to treat davidii and ecalcaratum as a one species, I am afraid they would need to come out with outstanding arguments for it

I know, something like mixed wild populations where forms of both grow together...but we'll see. For me both species are different (in the way they grow, in their leaves, in theri roots, in how easy they grow in my garden,...).

a  revision of the spurless Epimediums from Campanulatae group was published recently (2017).
http://phytokeys.pensoft.net/articles.php?id=11640

Thanks for sharing, very interesting

[WimB]

Epimedium grandiflorum 'Spring Wedding'
and one of the biggest flowering wild species (just a shame the flowers hide under the leaves): Epimedium macrosepalum

[WimB]

Many rock gardeners find Epimediums too big for the rock garden (and a lot of them are) but this very small form (which originated with Don Jacobs of Eco Select nurseries in the US) is great for the rock garden, very slow clumper and not taller than 5 cm when in flower, while the 2nd flush of leaves only gets to 15 cm.

Epimedium x youngianum 'Lilliputian'

And since I like some more colour I've been trying different hybridisations with it for a couple of years...the first 2 were flowering this year (not taller than 8 cm when in flower, but with quite big flowers (1 - 1.5 cm))

[Gabriela]

Great hybrids Wim! - I like more the second one. I've seen 'Liliputan', it is incredible small. If you have access to buy 'Lemon Zest' is a great little one as well.

I am very impatient for my first hybrid seedling which is just about to flower: 'mama'  lishihchenii, father - unknown

[WimB]

Great hybrids Wim! - I like more the second one. I've seen 'Liliputan', it is incredible small. If you have access to buy 'Lemon Zest' is a great little one as well.

I am very impatient for my first hybrid seedling which is just about to flower: 'mama'  lishihchenii, father - unknown

Thanks, Gabriela...I do have Lemon Zest, which is a very beautiful hybrid with ecalcaratum genes, but over here it grows up to 35 - 40 cm....most grandiflorums and x youngianums stay smaller.

Looking forward to seeing your hybrids...I love the young leaves of lishichenii.

[WimB]

Forgot this one: newly named from Epimedium nursery (Belgium)...named by Daniëlle Monbaliu for her husband.

Epimedium 'Guy De Pauw'

[gerrit]

http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=3374.735

The discussion/confusion started above. post 742

I just have forgotten to add the words "forma spurless". My plant is a vigorous typical growing davidii. But with not normal spurs. I like it because of it's aberration. I have contacted Koen van Poucke, the grower of the plant. Koen is a renowed grower of Epimediums. His material is beyond any doubt. I have sent him a picture, but he could not tell me what happened. So...who knows? But it is not E. ecalcaratum. As far as i know, Koen never have sold E. ecalcaratum. I should have bought it.

I named my plant: Epimedium davidii f. spurless. However, when you look at the picture attached, you see short spurs almost, no spurs, 2 spurs, 3 spurs, but not the normal spurs of a davidii, true to the kind. So i think it is a well choosen name.

[WimB]

Maybe in the end it really is EMR4125 and it could be a very variable clone. I guess to be sure the easiest would just be to contact Martyn Rix himself...I'll see if I can get into contact!

[Gabriela]

Forgot this one: newly named from Epimedium nursery (Belgium)...named by Daniëlle Monbaliu for her husband.
Epimedium 'Guy De Pauw'

Gorgeous Epimedium; I especially love this kind of foliage.

http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=3374.735

The discussion/confusion started above. post 742
I just have forgotten to add the words "forma spurless". My plant is a vigourous typical growing davidii. But with no normal spurs. I like it because of it's aberration. I have contacted Koen van Poucke, the grower of the plant. Koen is a renowed grower of Epimediums. His material is beyond any doubt. I have sent him a picture, but he could not tell me what happened. So...who knows? But it is not E. ecalcaratum. As far as i know, Koen never have sold E. ecalcaratum. I should have bought it.

I named my plant: Epimedium davidii f. spurless. However, when you look at the picture attached, you see short spurs almost, no spurs, 2 spurs, 3 spurs, but not the normal spurs of a davidii, true to the kind. So i think it is a well choosen name.

Gerrit - Observations about a plant name don’t mean to doubt the respectability of a plant nursery/owner. Species can be introduced in cultivation under a ‘wrong’ name, mistakes happen, plus the natural variability is always a factor.

Now that you posted a better image of the Epimedium in question (whatever it may be, a species or hybrid ) anyone can see that it has a lot of spurred flowers –  personally I don’t understand but if you like to call it ‘spurless’ of course it is your choice.
I maintain the opinion that it adds to confusion regarding E. davidii as described to the present day.

[TheOnionMan]

Hello fellow epi fans, been intending on weighing in here, but been immersed in home renovations. Just a quick summary, more later:

1.  I agree with Gabriela, I believe E. davidii EMR 4125 (which has strong incurved well-developed spurs) is confused in horticultural commerce with ecalcaratum. I saw such confusion recently with plants labels as platypetalum which were instead ecalcaratum.

2. I do not agree that ecalcaratum and davidii are one and the same.  Nor do I think it is prudent to label a plant that has the traits of ecalcaratum (variably shaped to absent vestigial spurs) as E. davidii "forma spurless", this is inviting more confusion.

3. I will ask Darrell on his thoughts on this.

4. I will show a 2nd gen davidii hybrid that starts going nearly spurless and looking "ecalcaratum-esque".

5. Wim, I'd like to discuss your Liliputian results (looking good, but would like to see whole plant)

6.  Darrell stopped by and showed me a mystery Epimedium (yet another Chen Yi one) that is essentially a rhizomatous davidii look-alike with very narrow floral parts (long very slender spurs) with very long stolons, which he believes is probably an Epimedium sp. nova.

[TheOnionMan]

Many rock gardeners find Epimediums too big for the rock garden (and a lot of them are) but this very small form (which originated with Don Jacobs of Eco Select nurseries in the US) is great for the rock garden, very slow clumper and not taller than 5 cm when in flower, while the 2nd flush of leaves only gets to 15 cm.

Epimedium x youngianum 'Lilliputian'

And since I like some more colour I've been trying different hybridisations with it for a couple of years...the first 2 were flowering this year (not taller than 8 cm when in flower, but with quite big flowers (1 - 1.5 cm))

Wim, I'm most interested in seeing whole plant views of your Alpha & Beta offspring from Liliputian, to see the plant habit and relative size of flowers to the plant.

As you know, I've been working with 'Liliputian' to breed for smaller epimediums. In the long run, I've only made a few selections because I find some traits to be variable year to year, looking for more reliable performers. My best selection so far stands out because of the following: extra compact small size, tiny leaflets, profuse flowers like a miniaturized pink grandiflorum sitting above the foliage. Probably will be tough to propagate as the rhizomes seems congested.

This is from 2010 seed on Liliputian (both OP and some hand pollination), selected in 2014 for further eval.

The last photo is at early flowering, my pointed finger for scale comparison with tiny leaflets.

[TheOnionMan]

I don't yet have an official name for this yet, I just call it "mini pink grandi" referring to the small size and similarity to flower shape to grandiflorum. Here are two more views.  In the foreground middle is Hosta 'Sukey Sue', an unregistered hybrid from 40 years ago, my one and only, named for my wife... it's given enough bare ground for the leaves to fill, with smaller epimedium planted at the periphery. The "mini pink grandi' sure stands out.

In the second image, on the left is my very slow growing, extra spiny-leaved dwarf E. stellulatum hybrid (OP stellulatum seed), Darrell suggested that it might be a cross with wushananse "Spiny leaved form" or my guess of ilicifolium.  Mini pink grandi is in the background on the right.

Both will receive proper names.

[TheOnionMan]

Back to davidii hybrids:

1. start with these two E. davidii EMR hybrids, on the right is one that looks like classic davidii, but is much better flowering (more prolific) than the EMR form. One the left is a typical result of davidii hybrids, vey small yellow and red or yellow and pink flowers, this one has pinkish-red sepals.

2. same two davidii hybrids in a previous year, the flower difference can be seen better here.

3. two hybrids that resulted from growing OP seed of the small-flowered yellow and pink davidii hybrid.  Wow, look at what shows up, on the left is a very nice davidii type hybrid but with enlarges white sepals (on the left), but on the right is what looks like E. campanulatum (however that species doesn't have spurs, not even rudimentary ones), but it has vestigial spurs, and not a full set of spur "bumps", sometimes just 1 vestigial spur. Looks more akin to ecalcaratum (although it's a species I do not have, I do have campanulatum).

4.  closer view of the 2nd gen davidii hybrid that's starting to look like ecalcaratum