Lilium 2009

[Pauli]

Hello,

hier an unidentified lily from a friends garden, origin: China

Please can you help us naming it!

All the best from Austria!

Herbert

[Paul T]

Paul,

The thought of the possiblities of hansonii and cattaniae is amazing.  Never grown either of them , but love the pics (I adore the colour of the cattaniae pics I have seen.. so rich and dark). The two of those together just sound like they have so many possibilities!!    Good luck!!

[Boyed]

Any of you experts, I have heard one shouldn't grow L. lancifolium, if one wishes to keep their lilies virus-free.  Any truth to this?  Would be a disappointment, as I have a few plants doing quite well

Jamie,
The same I heard and read about lilium tigrinum. But I grow it many years with my other lilies and bulbs with no problem as my stock is of old origin and virus-free. The most importnt is having a virus-free stock. Virus in lilies is not difficult to observe by symptoms of leaf mosaic. All you need is to check your lilium lancifolium for viruses.

[Boyed]

Some lilies from my collection

[Boyed]

more

[gote]

Jamie,
The same I heard and read about lilium tigrinum. But I grow it many years with my other lilies and bulbs with no problem as my stock is of old origin and virus-free. The most importnt is having a virus-free stock. Virus in lilies is not difficult to observe by symptoms of leaf mosaic. All you need is to check your lilium lancifolium for viruses.

The problem is that Lilium lancifolium Thunb = tigrinum Ker-gawler can harbour virus without showing visible symptoms. The only way for an amateur is to infect a susceptible species with sap from the T.l. and wait a year.
Göte

[gote]

Very nice distichum, Gote. I haven't got that species yet, but in the last two years am rapidly building up the collection again.
Using two periods of warm/cold I believe I can flower martagons in four years.I use a large commercial soft drink fridge, but am running out of space and am on the lookout for another One of my main aims is to try to breed martagons that will stand Melbourne's summers, and still retain their graceful beauty.So the trait of early flowering would be an advantage.
Does anybody know of anyone having success with a heat hardiness breeding programme with martagons?
Here is Hansonii, a treasured gift from the late Essie Huxley, flowering from last year.I pollinated it with two different seedlings, plus the pollen from cattaniae that a friend gave me.The seed set was excellent.
Regards
Paul R

Thank you. This one grows in a fairly dark place and seems to like it.
Treasure that hansonii! It is the original clone that was first imported to the west. Itis becoming rare.
Göte
Göte

[gote]

Hello,
hier an unidentified lily from a friends garden, origin: China
Please can you help us naming it!
All the best from Austria!
Herbert

I am afraid that the naming here is quite difficult. The taxonomists have divided opinions and there is probably not enough material available to get the whole picture.
It has been exported from China under the name Lilium nepalense var. It is undoubtedly related to nepalense but looks to my mind more like Lilium ochraceum which sometimes has been called L nepalense var burmanicum. (I hope this is right I have no books where I write this)
It is very beautiful and I grew it for some years in woodland conditions.
Göte 

[Boyed]

The problem is that Lilium lancifolium Thunb = tigrinum Ker-gawler can harbour virus without showing visible symptoms. The only way for an amateur is to infect a susceptible species with sap from the T.l. and wait a year.
Göte

Göte
It is true not all species and cultivars show visible symptoms of virus when infected. According to my 15-year studies of virus on different bulbs, I can say that in case of infection all lilies somewhat show symptoms of desease; the only thing is that on some species or cultivars the symtoms can be less visable and noticable only by profesionals or experienced growers. And I agree that for an amature it is not always easy.

The best way to identify virus in such species or cultivars is to carefully observe the young leaves at the beginning of vegetation. This proves to be very helpful. On the matured leaves virus symptoms are often less visable or not visable.

[Boyed]

By the way, I would like to bring an interesting example, maybe not relevant for the lily topic, but related with virus problems.

I grow some wild native forms of iris reticulata, which are 100% virus free. At the same time I grow several Dutch iris reticulata cultivars for around 5 years. I didn't even sispected that my iris reticulata Dutch cultivars could be virused as they looked quite healthy, when look at them just simply. But hearing many opinions from different bulb fellows that Dutch stocks of many crocus, muscary, iris, etc very often turns out to be infected I decided this year to carefully observe the leaves of all my Dutch iris reticulata cultivars bearing all this in mind, and compare with my wild native ones, which are virus free. And what I found out that all my Dutch cultivars were unfortunately infected. I observed that lighter stripes on the leaves. The thing is that the leaves of iris reticulata are very narrow and from the distance the virus is not visable at all. And only careful observation from a close distance helps to reveal the virus. So other group of plants went to the garbage!!!

[Pauli]

Thank you Gote for your help!

Herbert

[Paul T]

Zhirair,

The point unfortunately becomes that EVERYTHING will need to be thrown out because EVERYTHING has a virus of some point in it, even in the wild.  I would imagine that if we got down to the minute detail, there would be some sort of virus inherent in every plant on the planet..... so at what point is something virused and needs to be thrown out?  If a virus is benign and never does any harm to that plant or any other plant, is it really a problem?  If the only way you could see it on the plant was to look so closely that you normally could not see it, and the virus does not affect flowering or growth, does it really matter if the virus is present?  I agree wholeheartedly with trying to keep our plants virus-free where possible, but basically from those that produce unsightly growth or detract from the plant in some way or other (i.e diminished flowering), but until you compared your dutch plants with the wild plants you were happy with the flowering and happy with the plants and their growth..... so what harm did that virus do?  Was it REALLY worthwhile throwing your collection out because of it?

OK, part of this is a phylosophical discussion, but in this case I really have to ask...... viruses are everywhere.  I would hazard all plants are virused in some form or other, so at what point does a particular virus become bad?  Yes, when it negatively affects the plant, but otherwise why should it be a problem if it doesn't?

If this should go in a previous virus discussion, feel free to move it oh-great-and-powerful-moderators. 

[Martin Baxendale]

The problem is that some plants will live quite happily with being virus infected and their growth and flowering won't be seriously affected but they can then pass virus to other plants which are far more susceptible and which do show severe virus symptoms such as malformed, ugly flowers and stunted growth which make them useless as decorative garden plants. This is especially the case with lilies. Some seem completely immune to the effects of virus but can infect a whole collection, the majority of which will show severe symptoms and become useless.

Of course, if all plants in a particular grouping (species, group of cultivars etc) were equally tolerant of viruses and unaffected by them, there'd be no problem - just like a population of humans that becomes immune to a particular flu virus; the virus is still around and in the sytems of many individuals, and still passed around, but there are no ill effects.

Breeding virus resistance is not simple though. I guess you'd have to infect lots of seedlings, then interbreed those that show no symptoms, and so on. But I can't see many plant breeders wanting work with lots of virused material.

[Paul T]

Martin,

Yes, you're right that some carry and pass it on (and I realise that lancifolium is a known problem for exactly this reason).  I was reacting in this particular case to the iris example, which is apparently fairly benign.  Problematic viruses very much need to be watched for, as there are a number of people here who have had collections destroyed of various genus, because a virus got in and hit them hard.  I was most definitely not saying that we shouldn't be worried about viruses in total.

[Martin Baxendale]

I agree with you of course in the general sense, Paul, that we should be aiming to breed disease and pest-resistant plants instead of relying on chemical treatments to keep plant stocks healthy, and that the battle against viruses is an endless one better approached in the long-term via natural resistance instead of constant vigilance to kill virus vector insects and roguing of stocks. It's a very long process, though, and not one that the plant industry is geared up to. The large-scale nursery industry is by nature short-term and prefers to either live with (and sometimes sell!) virused plants and bulbs or try to temporarily clean them up via micro-prop, which is very costly. It's not a problem that's going to go away any time soon.

One of the problems with tolerating a virus in one genus where it;s  fairly benign is that it may be transmissible to other genera that are more susceptible. I think this happens with some bulbs but I don't know details.