Galanthus gracilis variance?

[Paul T]

Howdy All,

I was trying to work out whether to put this just within the Southern Hemisphere topic or into it's own.  Obviously enough I ended up making it into a separate one, but if the moderators want to combine it into the Southern Hemisphere topic they're welcome to if preferred.

I have grown for a number of years a Galanthus gracilis that I love dearly.  Quite slender little corkscrewing leaves (not so much at flowering but quite twisted later on) with the flowers that have the distinct double mark.  Last year at a friend's place I saw something they had labelled as gracilis that was quite different, although similar enough to wonder whether it was variance within the species or not.  The leaves on this second one are MUCH wider, and have only a hint of the twisting at maturity.  The flowers are slightly differently shaped, but have the same distinct double marking as the older one I have.  I've included here a pic of my old one (entitled Galanthus gracilis) and 2 pics of the 2 flowers on the new one (entitled Galanthus 'gracilis') which show some minor differences in markings.  The 2 bulbs I was given of the new one were quite small and I did not expect any flowers from them this year as I thought they would need to bulk up, but obviously they are plenty big enough to flower.  My original plants have always had quite small bulbs as well.  Lastly, I include a pic of the 2 plants (original on the left, new one on the right), both in the same size (10cm) pots for comparison purposes.  Even then it really doesn't manage to show just how much more significant the leaves are on the new one versus the old one.  I can measure leaf widths if that will help as well, just let me know.

So..... do those in the know think that my new 'gracilis' is actually a variance on the species, or a hybrid involving the species?  It is just so different when you first look at it.

Thanks for any help. 

[Brian Ellis]

Hello Paul,

As an interested amateur, and having seen the variations in Jože Bavcon's "Common Snowdrop and it's Diversity in Slovenia", and seen Melvyn Jope's excellent presentation on the variations of Galanthus reginae-olgae on Corfu, I would dare to suggest that there may well be huge variations in all of the snowdrop species throughout the world.

I have three types of gracilis too.

What joy

[Paul T]

Brian,

What are your 3 gracilis like?  Variance in flower markings and shape I expect, but the huge comparative difference in the leaves of my two is different enough to have me questioning.  While my old one has narrow and very twisted leaves, the newer one has much broader and only slightly twisted leaves.  I am quite happy to have them as two different types of the species, believe me, as I find that sort of natural variation absolutely fascinating.  I'll just be interested to see what the consensus becomes..... variance or hybridisation.  Does anyone else grow very broad leafed gracilis (or is my thin leafed gracilis the unusual one)?  I do have a couple of gracilis coming along from seed from someone a couple of years ago, so they will be interesting to watch over time as well for where they fit in the gracilis continuum. 

Thanks so much for the response.  I would be most interested to hear more about your 3 different gracilis, as I mentioned at the beginning.

[Martin Baxendale]

There is a wide variation in leaf width within gracilis from very thin to virtually as wide as in elwesii. The key diagnostic feature is leaf vernation. Leaves wrapped one around the other at the base = elwesii. Leaves flat against each other at the base (as in nivalis) = gracilis.

Of course whether gracilis and elwesii are actually distinct species is another matter. Current thinking is that they are, although they're very close in both morphology and cytology and they cross very easily.

[Martin Baxendale]

Sorry, meant to add that, from your picture, Paul, the leaves look like they're flat against each other, which would make it gracilis.

[Sinchets]

I just wanted to add that when travelling across a country where snowdrops are native you do see a whole range of variation as you move between different areas. If species are named from types found at widely separated locations, it then means that everything that happens in the 'middle ground' ends up very hard to explain. Plants don't seem to accept International borders very well. 

[Brian Ellis]

Sorry Paul, just got back from the Post Office!  My gracilis differ
a in their ovary shape, one being quite long and
b (which is what you want to know!) in their leaf, one is much twistier and thinner.
c G.gracilis 'Highdown form'
Also have hybrids like Sutton Courtenay (syn G.gracilis Nancy Lindsay), and those which have gracilis blood - Pride o'the Mill, Yamanlar, Duckie etc.

[Paul T]

Thanks for the info Martin.  The leaves definitely are flat against each other, not wrapped like elwesii.  I thought that there were more than just gracilis and elwesii that had leaves that were flat to each other?  Certainly my larger form does look very similar in leaf to elwesii with without the leaf "wrap", that had already occurred to me.  It was why I was wondering whether it might have been a hybrid.  Knowing that there are very broad leaf forms means it fits within the range, particularly as it sounds like they are already in cultivation.

Simon,

Thanks for the response.  I realise that a lot of species have a wide variety of characteristics, while others don't.  If a wide leaf form of gracilis was unknown in Europe the odds of it being grown here was very limited, making it more chance of being a hybrid, so asking was worthwhile to find out what was around and "known" for this species.  Australia does seem to have some unusual varieties of some plants (in some cases brought here years ago and still persisting, while in the northern hemisphere they have died out of horticulture) but I figured that with something like Galanthus this was less likely. 

Brian,

Thanks for that thorough reply.  I didn't realise there were so many different ones around.  Must try to find seed of some of these different forms if possible, just to find out what results.  Much quicker than waiting for most of these things to be imported by someone with a quarantine station! 

Thanks again everyone for the responses.  Has been well worthwhile asking the question as I have found out more about the forms of gracilis than I previously knew.  If anyone has photos of any of the other forms or cultivars of gracilis I would love to see them.  Would be interesting to have them altogether in one place.

[Sinchets]

No problem, Paul. These things interest me. Where in the wild is G.gracilis found and is it found mixed with 'standard' G.elwesii?
We have found similar 'problems' here with wild populatiosn of Crocus biflorus, Fritillaria pontica and Himantoglossum caprinum. If you travel around enough and view a large number of populations and individul plants, you start to see forms which in other parts of Europe are accorded subspecific or varietal status, but which here grow in mixed populations with the 'more standard' forms. I'm developing a theory that in some parts of Europe, population crashes and subsequent bottlenecks have lead to certain forms predominating in some areas. However, in the next mountain range over this hasn't happened and the population is still mixed.

[Martin Baxendale]

Packets of dried wild-collected and farmed elwesii bulbs from Turkey can have bulbs of gracilis mixed in with them, which could be how your wide-leaf form found its way to your part of the world.

[Paul T]

Simon,

No idea of exact localities where it is found or whether it is mixed with elwesii.  Others should hopefully know.

Martin,

Particularly if these dry wild-collected bulbs were sent here before our quarantine was tightened.  If so, they've had a chance to multiply over time as well.  I must ask the person I got the larger gracilis from if they know where it originated from.  Might be interesting to track how long it has been here.  At least now I can let him know that it IS gracilis, and that my gracilis that I gave him is just a different form. 

I'll be fascinated to see what the larger one looks like once it has settled in here a few years.  My recollection was when I saw it in his collection that it was the size of an elwesii, so much, much larger than my fine leaf form.  I love the flower markings of gracilis, so a much larger version will be very cool.  Certainly the flowers I have on the larger leaf one that I showed you are somewhat smaller than they were in his clump.

[Tony Willis]

No problem, Paul. These things interest me. Where in the wild is G.gracilis found and is it found mixed with 'standard' G.elwesii?
We have found similar 'problems' here with wild populatiosn of Crocus biflorus, Fritillaria pontica and Himantoglossum caprinum. If you travel around enough and view a large number of populations and individul plants, you start to see forms which in other parts of Europe are accorded subspecific or varietal status, but which here grow in mixed populations with the 'more standard' forms. I'm developing a theory that in some parts of Europe, population crashes and subsequent bottlenecks have lead to certain forms predominating in some areas. However, in the next mountain range over this hasn't happened and the population is still mixed.

several 'experts' have looked at the galanthus on Mt Vermion in Northern Greece and seem unable to decide if they are elwesii or gracilis a mixture of both or hybrids.In some areas they seem like gracilis,in others elwesii and then there are the rest.

[Sinchets]

So have these experts looked at them in situ or from collected materials? In the wild and with enough individuals you really start to appreciate that there is a range of forms, usually with many intermediates. Harder I know with Galanthus, as they don't seem to do subtle changes in flower colour or shape. But it is possible that a 'gracilis' form is something that occurs throughout the range of G.elwesii- just because. It all comes back to the discussions we have had on several other threads, that for some species maybe we cannot really talk about species ,or subspecies, but have to talk about where they were collected to help compare them. We are currently out taking pics of our local Himatoglossum populations- all H.caprinum, but with some at one end of a range of forms looking like H.hircinum and some more like H.adriaticum. Some sites online say we don't have H.caprinum here anyway- so do you trust experts- or do you go by what you see in the field?

[Tony Willis]

yes they were in situ, and to take Martin's point on vernation it would then seem obvious as to which species they belonged to but apparently this is not the case in this area.

[Sinchets]

So maybe hybrids then, or a very fluid species with a wide variation which is more obvious in some locations than others?