Colchicum germination again.

[Darren]

An old topic I know, and it was discussed on the old forum too but I found a reference to this recent research paper which might offer clues:

Propagation of Ornamental Plants
Vol. 8, № 2, 2008: 105-107
EFFECTS OF STRATIFICATION, TEMPERATURE AND LIGHT ON SEED
GERMINATION OF COLCHICUM MACROPHYLLUM B. L. BURTT
Anna Antonidaki-Giatromanolaki*, Magdalena Dragassaki, Michael Papadimitriou, and Ioannis Vlahos

I cannot get access to the full text here but the abstract is available at:

http://www.journal-pop.org/2008_8_2_105-107.htm

Their conclusion doesn't strike me as being vastly different to the techniques already tried by forumists or maybe I'm missing something?

Perhaps the constant high temperature for pre-treatment is the trick? And 8 weeks at 20C is quite a long time anyway. Any thoughts?

[tonyg]

Sow at depth in spring, keep moist through the summer and germination should follow?  As I read it.  Explains the delayed germination from Autumn sowing, too cold for germination in the first season after sowing.  Thanks for sharing this Darren, I have some colchicum seed to sow, looks like I have left it late unless this Indian summer continues for another couple of months!

[fermi de Sousa]

This is the abstract of an article I am working on
Abstract
"The incredibily indolent way of germinating Colchicum seeds"
"Seeds of Colchicum hungaricum szovitsii, a notoriuosly poor germinator, were sown in autumn 2008 in a 3" tube in potting mix, then covered with 1cm of gravel.
The seedpot was left exposed to the elements for 12 months and was noted to be covered in weeds in late winter 2009.
The seedpot was weeded (along with many, many others) and 3 weeks later 3 small monocots were noticed to have emerged (2 types of crocus did likewise but no other pots of colchicum seed)."
Key words: Colchicum, weeds, neglect, luck.
Did disturbance of the soil by weeding encourage germination?
Did root hormones from the weeds (papaver and grass spp.) have an effect of triggering germination.
Are these in fact Colchicum seedlings and not another weed?
These questions may not be answered any time soon! Give me about 7 years for the last one in particular.
cheers
fermi

[Darren]

Fermi - your approach is the one I have used in the past with my own seed and I have had germination eventually also! I would like to find something controllable/reliable before I spend money on rare seeds from commercial sources though.

Tony - I wonder if you could sow now and keep the pots indoors? Or soak the seed and put it in bags of moist vermiculite and keep them indoors in the dark (in an old  biscuit tin or similar? )until the end of november, then sow them? This method is a bit like the 'Reading' method for old Cyclamen seed and that certainly seems to work very well. I find if I hide the pots behind the fridge in the larder I can usually retrieve them before Susan finds them and i get into (more) trouble.

I've already sown my own Colchicum seed a fortnight ago so it may be too late for me - especially as I used the very unscientific but space-saving technique of sowing in the pots with their parents. In retrospect this was stupid as I now can't repot next summer without losing the ungerminated seed!

[tonyg]

Darren - I might try that idea of keeping them indoors ... trouble is I might well forget them for 8 months such are the complexities of life.  I have always used the patient wait approach and have had success with a range of colchicum but slow and sporadic germination makes it very hit and miss.  Like Fermi I have had to weed out allsorts although the little bilbs beneath don't seem to mind - just wish there were more of them.  Some are probably lost due to the delay in the occurrence of the optimum sequence of events, if I can get the conditions right in the first few months after sowing I might get better results.  Yes, I will try the hiding them indoors approach - making a note in the family diary of the date when I must retrieve them and place them  outside. 

[Rodger Whitlock]

Did disturbance of the soil by weeding encourage germination?
Did root hormones from the weeds (papaver and grass spp.) have an effect of triggering germination.
Are these in fact Colchicum seedlings and not another weed?

Answers:

1. Quite possibly. There are many weeds with long-lived seeds that don't germinate until the soil is disturbed, so there's no reason for colchicum not to have the same behavior.

2. I doubt it. I've had success with colchicum seed a couple of times and I don't have weeds in my seed pots.

3. Colchicum seedlings will be clearly different from grass and papaver, and monocot weeds aren't too common. The real clue is after the young bulb goes dormant: even though it's very small, it's clearly a colchicum.

[Tony Willis]

The few I sow are left in pots outside until they hopefully show signs of life. One I sowed in 01 and repotted last week has three bulbs each 1cm long and the thickness of a pencil lead. Is life long enough to ever flower one?

[fermi de Sousa]

Oops! The paper has been sent back for revision as the ones that germinated were C. szovitsii! and on inspection yesterday 2 more pots were found to have single cotyledons evident -these 3 pots were of various forms of the species received from the AGS Seedex including some from our fellow ( ) forumist, Diane Clement! The original pot that showed germination a couple of weeks ago now has 4 little cotyledons up. 

Rodger,
I'll take the hint and check the pots in a year or two to see if they are colchicums - the monocot weeds we have around here include a pest form of romulea and the little leave could easily be mistaken for them!

Back to the drawing board.
cheers
fermi

[HClase]

In 2006 I collected some seeds from Colchicum speciosum 'Album'.  This was the first time in over 20 years that I have noticed seed from this cv, the only colchicum I grow (all from commercial stock bought in the '70's) that regularly sets seed is C. speciosum.  The two were growing fairly close together, so I cross pollination is likely.  "Might produce some interesting forms", I thought, so I potted them up and stuck them in a cold frame.  Last year one had germinated so I left it to grow on - now look what has happened after 3 winters (minimum temps about -15C, and frost from October to May (at least!).   I wonder if I'll live to discover the results!

[ArnoldT]

Darren:

I had posted a note about the article a couple of months ago.  I have a Pdf of the article which  I received from the author.

The long and short of it is that her theory states that he seeds are not yet fully matured when they are released  and the warm moist conditions she recommends  allows them to ripen.

If you want the complete article contact me privately and I'll email it to you.

Cheers,

Arnold

[Sinchets]

Patience has paid off. Following what has been for us an usually wet Spring- ie it has rained at least 2 times a week since mid March- I have had germinations on pots of Colchicum seed sown up to 3 years ago. This includes CC luteum, macrophyllum, cilcicum and speciosum. I normally have to water seed pots in Spring, but realise now I was probably not watering enough, worrying I would rot the seeds. 

[Janis Ruksans]

This is the abstract of an article I am working on
Abstract
"The incredibily indolent way of germinating Colchicum seeds"
"Seeds of Colchicum hungaricum szovitsii, a notoriuosly poor germinator, were sown in autumn 2008 in a 3" tube in potting mix, then covered with 1cm of gravel.
The seedpot was left exposed to the elements for 12 months and was noted to be covered in weeds in late winter 2009.
The seedpot was weeded (along with many, many others) and 3 weeks later 3 small monocots were noticed to have emerged (2 types of crocus did likewise but no other pots of colchicum seed)."
Key words: Colchicum, weeds, neglect, luck.
Did disturbance of the soil by weeding encourage germination?
Did root hormones from the weeds (papaver and grass spp.) have an effect of triggering germination.
Are these in fact Colchicum seedlings and not another weed?
These questions may not be answered any time soon! Give me about 7 years for the last one in particular.
cheers
fermi

I don't like Colchicums. Too difficult to get germnation. I never know what is needed, I'm doing allways the same, but results very different. Exception Colchicum szowitsii forms from Armenia - selfsowing if grown in garden (feel far better than in pots). Last year in spring I found a lot of germinating seeds on surface of soil where for second year were left Colchicum szowitsii  . I collected them, put in pot and... nothing came up .  From other side my large stock of Colchicum munzurense started from small pinch of seeds got from Gothenburg BG. They germinated very well and after 4 years started blooming and now excellently multiplies vegetatively.
Janis

[Sinchets]

We are opting for direct sowing here too this year. Half a dozen native species can't be wrong 

[Janis Ruksans]

We are opting for direct sowing here too this year. Half a dozen native species can't be wrong 

It is my style of seed sowing - immediately after harvesting! This spring huge numbers of uncollected Fritillaria and Crocus seeds on open beds surface show white shoots - they start germinating where they felt out without any care. It puts idea of Ian Young about deep sowing of seeds under serious doubt. I* never tried it and the only adventage of Ian's style could be more even moisture lever deeper in soil. But regular watering is needed in each case.
Janis

[tonyg]

I agree with Janis re: early sowiing for many bulb seeds.
I have had better germination since sowing crocus and narcissus deeper.  Not only better germination but also better seedling development.  I think that, especially in pots. the even moisture at depth, makes a big difference to seed germination and seedling development.  'Empty' seedpots often get overlooked when watering to the detriment of ungerminated/germinating seed.... at least that can happen in my garden