Crocus October 2009

[Oron Peri]

1. This was obtained in August as goulimyi leucanthus white form. Shouldn't it simply be goulimyi 'Alba'?
2. Because of their height I'm thinking my pulchellus Alba is speciosus Alba

There are no sharp line between typical goulimyi and var. leucanthus and I would prefer to regard it as goulimyi albus.
Yours pulchellus looks more as speciosus albus (anthers are yellow, in pulchellus white), but possibly it is hybrid. Typical speciosus cultivar bringing name 'Albus' has pointed flower segments. See attached picture.
Janis

Janis

Maybe the fact that Gulimyi leucanthus grows in large numbers in the wild ranked it as a var. level and differs it from The 'Albus,Album, Albidum' that are given to few plants that rarely or very rarely appear Albino.

[ashley]

Fine niveus Gerry

[Michael J Campbell]

Crocus tournefortii, coll. Isle of Skiros.

[Hristo]

I'll second Ashley, very nice C.niveus Gerry, and all the better for being seed grown.
We have seed from this collection but they had to wait to be sowed so no flowers
yet, but thanks for the preview, hope ours will look as good!

Hi Michael. super shot of your C.tournefortii!

[Lesley Cox]

All are lovely as always but the lilac forms of C. niveus especially so. The two batches I've bought as niveus lilac form have both turned out white. I'll keep trying though. Can't have too many, whatever the shade.

[Gerry Webster]

Ashley & Chris - Thanks, I like it too. Jim Archibald says that this coll. has "pastel lilac pinks" as well as bicoloured forms. All mine are the latter. Chris, if you get the pinks, it would be interesting to see.

Michael - great photo of C. tournefortii, in my opinion the most beautiful Autumn crocus.

[Gerry Webster]

1. This was obtained in August as goulimyi leucanthus white form. Shouldn't it simply be goulimyi 'Alba'?
2. Because of their height I'm thinking my pulchellus Alba is speciosus Alba

There are no sharp line between typical goulimyi and var. leucanthus and I would prefer to regard it as goulimyi albus.

Janis

Janis
Maybe the fact that Gulimyi leucanthus grows in large numbers in the wild ranked it as a var. level and differs it from The 'Albus,Album, Albidum' that are given to few plants that rarely or very rarely appear Albino.

It seems that C. goulimyi leucanthus( from collections made near Monemvassia) was originally given subspecific rank for no good reason that I can see. I agree with Janis that even varietal status is dubious - it seems to be simply an albino form of C. goulimyi. However, it is certainly different to the cultivar 'Mani White' (which arose in cultivation).

[tonyg]

I have also formed the same opinion.  I originally thought that there was believed to be geographical separation of ssp leucanthus.  As I have not observed them in the wild I can only repeat what I have heard from other travellers - that pale or white forms occur in most areas of the distribution of Crocus goulimyi.  If so the distinction is hardly worth subspecific rank.  That said, the very pale often slightly bicolored forms are very attractive and it is useful to have a name to distinguish them by.

One observation of my own which might counter the above argument:  I have now raised Crocus goulimyi leucanthus from seed a number of times.  I have had seed from wild plants and also raised 2nd generation plants from these.  They have always bred true, all very pale or white flowered.  There has not yet been a single lilac flowered offspring.  This suggests some kind of genetic stability.
 
Seed that I received of C goulimyi 'Main White' which arose from cultivated stocks of Crocus goulimyi (lilac flowered) bred all lilac flowered plants at the first generation.  The 2nd generation gave around 20% white flowered plants.  Ian Young has observed similar behaviour in seedlings of white forms of Crocus nudiflorus.

So, does the stability of the 'white gene' in ssp leucanthus support the rank it is given?   ... Hopefully someone  with 'the knowledge' can advise.

[ashley]

Ashley, Neustadts gastropod doesn't need to be gastropod anymore - he has a rotatable display now  

Re hadriaticus saundersianus and chrysobelonicus we already had one or two discussions here on the forum, without getting a reasonable answer. Both names were given by Herbert in 1847 - in a time when only a few hadriaticus were in cultivation. Meanwhile lots of collections were made and the whole variability of hadriaticus lead to the conclusion, that both names are invalid now. Wild hadriaticus populations are mixed with all kinds of throat colour (white, yellow, purple like in saundersianus) and flower colour from white to blue and even striped or feathered forms.

So Annes plant is "just" one wonderful dark throated variant of the whole hadriaticus complex.

Thanks for this clear explanation Thomas.  Yes once 'species' are recognised as a complex it becomes meaningless to try distinguishing forms except in very broad terms.

Tony, your observations on genetic stability seem to me to support the taxonomic status of goulimyi var. leucanthus.

[Gerry Webster]

I have also formed the same opinion.  I originally thought that there was believed to be geographical separation of ssp leucanthus.  As I have not observed them in the wild I can only repeat what I have heard from other travellers - that pale or white forms occur in most areas of the distribution of Crocus goulimyi.  If so the distinction is hardly worth subspecific rank.  That said, the very pale often slightly bicolored forms are very attractive and it is useful to have a name to distinguish them by.

One observation of my own which might counter the above argument:  I have now raised Crocus goulimyi leucanthus from seed a number of times.  I have had seed from wild plants and also raised 2nd generation plants from these.  They have always bred true, all very pale or white flowered.  There has not yet been a single lilac flowered offspring.  This suggests some kind of genetic stability.

 
Seed that I received of C goulimyi 'Main White' which arose from cultivated stocks of Crocus goulimyi (lilac flowered) bred all lilac flowered plants at the first generation.  The 2nd generation gave around 20% white flowered plants.  Ian Young has observed similar behaviour in seedlings of white forms of Crocus nudiflorus.

So, does the stability of the 'white gene' in ssp leucanthus support the rank it is given?   ... Hopefully someone  with 'the knowledge' can advise.

I seem to remember postings on this Forum showing that the plants at Monemvassia are not all white-flowered. However, Jim Archibald describes "var. leucanthus", derived from a Steve Keeble collection, as "evenly & consistently white-flowered" & plants I have raised from seed produced by  his cultivated stock have all been white. So it seems the albinism is stable. I don't know what the criteria are for ascribing either subspecific or varietal status (& it is too late to look it up)  but maybe one or the other is justified after all.

[Alex]

Thomas,

Great pictures - I'm impressed that you are growing such great plants outside - do you give C. gilanicus much extra attention in the rock garden? Is it uncovered all year round?

Alex

[Thomas Huber]

Alex, my gilanicus grow outside since 2006. So far without trouble, except some losses in the last, very hard winter (-24°C). It is planted under a hazelnut bush which gives some protection from heavy rainfalls and additionally dries the soil in summer. All my tender plants are planted under shrubs while the "better" species are planted in the open. Both in sandy soil, just given some compost in summer.
By the way: In their natural habitat they also grow "outside"  The plants always look better in the garden than in pots.

Re goulimyi / leucanthus I found, that all the plants I have as leucanthus have very dark sheeting leaves, while the ssp goulimyi plants have white or only soft spotted ones.

[Paul T]

Crocus niveus

From Archibald seed (pop ref 348.806) ex a  D. Hoskins coll., Greece, Lakonia, N of Pirgos Dirou.

Beautiful, Gerry.  I love the side shot with the two colours to the petals, and the bright style poking out.  Gorgeous!!

[Sinchets]

By the way: In their natural habitat they also grow "outside"  The plants always look better in the garden than in pots.

Hurrah!  

[Janis Ruksans]

After yesterdays snow, hail, rain all the night - morning greated with moderate frost and clean blue sky. A lot of pictures but I must hurry to visit Lithuania an so only 1 picture at moment, more tomorrow evening.
Janis