Crocus to identify? Post them here....

[Janis Ruksans]

Özgür,
wow!  realy exquisite crocus and colchicum. Unfortunately I'm not able to identify them.
They all look C. biflorus but which ssp. ? Maybe also natural hybrids. But all very lovely.
Picture K2a resembles C. biflorus ssp. stridii but distribution is NO of Greece.
I don't know it growths in NW Turkey too.
Do you have more pictures showing them from the top?

The first isn't stridii - stridii is narrow Greek endemic (see attached picture). I haven't map at my hand at this moment and I don't know where locality is, but the first can be isauricus, too. There are forms of isauricus with stippled back, but there are too little to judge by those pictures only.
Janis

[I.S.]

Janis, it very hard to tell from one sampe specialy sbsp. of biflorus. I have severel pictures from that province and they don't look like isauricus. They don't have regular strips of isauricus! they look more to tauri to me. This subs. tauri has very large distribution from NE. N. E. C. S.  until Antalya it is posible to see this subsp. And it has quite large variations as you seen on my picture. The isauricus that Ozgür post was taken also in Antalya. Karaman is a province in south of inner Anatolia.
I will try to attache a page from Van university may help too.
http://vanherbaryum.yyu.edu.tr/flora/famgenustur/ir/cr/ta/index.htm
 

[Armin]

Ibrahim,
I used google maps to search for "Karadag" - I thought it is NW of Turkey, not south of inner Anatolia. Thanks.

Janis,
my comment of ssp. stridii referred to only one picture "K2A" (4th picture of reply no. 88,page 6).

[Janis Ruksans]

Janis, it very hard to tell from one sampe specialy sbsp. of biflorus. I have severel pictures from that province and they don't look like isauricus. They don't have regular strips of isauricus! they look more to tauri to me. This subs. tauri has very large distribution from NE. N. E. C. S.  until Antalya it is posible to see this subsp. And it has quite large variations as you seen on my picture. The isauricus that Ozgür post was taken also in Antalya. Karaman is a province in south of inner Anatolia.
I will try to attache a page from Van university may help too.
http://vanherbaryum.yyu.edu.tr/flora/famgenustur/ir/cr/ta/index.htm
 

Ibrahim, Many thanks for Van University Crocus taurii page.
Only want inform you that taurii didn't reach Antalya, It is much more eastern species. And I agree, they didn't look as isauricus, but such color type is possible, too. I can't judge about possibility of danfordiae - impossible to judge about size of flower segments.
Janis

To seperate isauricus from punctatus (flowers looks something similar, only fl. segments looks more rounded).

13 -- Filaments 4--7 mm long, anthers 7--11 mm long
                                  subsp. isauricus
13 -- Filaments 2--4 mm long, anthers 11---13 mm long                                     
                                                                        subsp. punctatus

[I.S.]

 Armin, We don't have in Turkey C. biflorus stridii as Janis said it is from NE. GR. and I will post a small map showing Karaman plain.
  I agree with you If we dont have location than we have to measure the part of plant. You know C. biflorus puctatus has very limited location in nort of the Antalya but C. danfordia is a common crocus for inner Anatolia. And C. biflorus isauricus is more to Antalya.
  I want atache a research from Selcuk university with exactly point for tauri just in the nort of the Antalya. If you remenber Gerd post a unknown picture it is also very close to that point.
  Of course might be also everywhere some forms between subsp.!!

 

[TheOnionMan]

Armin, We don't have in Turkey C. biflorus stridii as Janis said it is from NE. GR. and I will post a small map showing Karaman plain.
  I agree with you If we dont have location than we have to measure the part of plant. You know C. biflorus puctatus has very limited location in nort of the Antalya but C. danfordia is a common crocus for inner Anatolia. And C. biflorus isauricus is more to Antalya.
  I want atache a research from Selcuk university with exactly point for tauri just in the nort of the Antalya. If you remenber Gerd post a unknown picture it is also very close to that point.
  Of course might be also everywhere some forms between subsp.!! 

Ibrahim, it's very useful to post the map.  I have worked a little bit to help Ozgur identify some Alliums from the same regions, Karaman and Antalya, and had a similar map I was going to upload to that Allium ID thread.  Also, if one has access to the Flora of Turkey (I only have a photocopied portion of all the Allium pages, index, and Turkey provence maps), the species are keyed to little maps that show where each species had been found in Turkey, very useful in trying to hone in on a species identification of plants from known areas.

When I have been checking the Van University pages on Allium, I do think some of the identifications are suspect, and at least in a couple cases clearly are not correct... the photos not matching the species descriptions on the same page.  Not sure about the accuracy of the Crocus pages, only have looked critically at the Allium pages there.

[I.S.]

  Mark, I am not onion man! I am a croconut!! We have 175 species of onion. I don't think if there is anybody to identifie all of this correctly. And this list is not updated. I will try to attache below.
 
http://turkherb.ibu.edu.tr/index.php?sayfa=dizin&cins=Allium

[Armin]

Ibrahim,
thank you for the map & database link- very interesting. 62 specis for crocus.

[TheOnionMan]

  Mark, I am not onion man! I am a croconut!! We have 175 species of onion. I don't think if there is anybody to identifie all of this correctly. And this list is not updated. I will try to attache below.
http://turkherb.ibu.edu.tr/index.php?sayfa=dizin&cins=Allium

Ibraham, that is a very useful link.... show all plants species by province (Vilayets), by grid, organized by family, etc.  I see that it lists 175 allium species in Turkey, an increase from 141 species listed in Flora of Turkey (1984); I'll have to seak out publications for all the newer described species.  Some species will seem missing from the "taxa by Vilayet" sort method, because the database says about some species "data not found at a province level", so maybe this is still a work in progress.  Of the 4 Allium that Özgür posted as being found in Karaman, the database only reports 3 Allium species in Karaman, and 2 of those species instantly don't apply to Özgür's species, so I have to assume not all distribution of species is completely recorded. I imagine that database project it is a huge task, and it is immensely useful, I shall be visiting it frequently... thanks for sharing this excellent resource.

[I.S.]

 Armin, on mine list with some new record and with my study, it increase to 77. It should be same for Allium too.
 Mark you are right when we look by province that list is a little bit short. Then we need to check just next province. I tell you first Karaman is a new province before it was belong Konya!!.
 These database helps me lots, plus I add on, all my study in wild and I use lots of picture taken in wild by forumist or photographers from many different webside. In that way I try to have more correct result.

İbrahim

[Janis Ruksans]

Armin, We don't have in Turkey C. biflorus stridii as Janis said it is from NE. GR. and I will post a small map showing Karaman plain.
  I agree with you If we dont have location than we have to measure the part of plant. You know C. biflorus puctatus has very limited location in nort of the Antalya but C. danfordia is a common crocus for inner Anatolia. And C. biflorus isauricus is more to Antalya.
  I want atache a research from Selcuk university with exactly point for tauri just in the nort of the Antalya. If you remenber Gerd post a unknown picture it is also very close to that point.
  Of course might be also everywhere some forms between subsp.!!

 

I'm afraid that those dates are not correct. Nor biflorus taurii, nor C. kotschyanus grow W from C-5 (by map of Flora of Turkey). Of course, Flora of Turkey is something out of date but I nowhere found information about those two growing in direction to West from Icel. On your map quadrants are very large. I'm attaching map used in Flora of Turkey.
Janis

[I.S.]

 Janis that was a report from Konya Selcuk University 2006  
I will attache the line (check the page 297)
http://guzelsu.com/htm/tez/185739.pdf
 My own C. kotschyanus subsp. kotschyanus is from just NE. of Alanya desstination Sarıveliler (on your map between C3 - C4 collected by me august in a holiday, not in autumn !!!
 You know to find a crocus in august. Just you should be too lucky!!

[Janis Ruksans]

Janis that was a report from Konya Selcuk University 2006  
I will attache the line (check the page 297)
http://guzelsu.com/htm/tez/185739.pdf
 My own C. kotschyanus subsp. kotschyanus is from just NE. of Alanya destination Sarıveliler (on your map between C3 - C4 collected by me august in a holiday, not in autumn !!!
 You know to find a crocus in august. Just you should be too lucky!!

Ibrahim, thanks for this link. Although it is in Turkish, I understood part about Crocuses. It a little surprised me. There are not listed very widespread in this part C. cancellatus lycius may be subsp. mazziaricus, too (according your map's C3) Still I think that kotschyanus is something misidentified. Of course, I didn't see specimens. Regarding pallasii dispathaceus I suppose that they are only poor forms of subsp. pallasii. The same opinion expressed B. Mathew about specimens from this district. The width of petals used in key is insufficient for determination. It is subsp. from E Turkey and N. Syria and main feature to separate is short stigmatic branches enclosed by incurved anthers and +/- narrow flower segments. See attached pictures. All subsp. pallasii are from one small locality - give attention to width of flower segments. Even there you can see one specimen with a little inside turned anthers slightly overtopping stigmatic branches but not so impressive as in dispathaceus. Pictures of subsp. dispathaceus are from 2 localities, first in Turkey, another in Syria.
Janis

[I.S.]

Janis, at first your last two pallasii are subsp. turcicus from SE. TR. and fron Syria!! The other are ok.pallasii subsp. pallasii. C. pallasii subsp. dispathaceus is an edndemic to TR. fron inner south Anatolia.

[Janis Ruksans]

Janis, at first your last two pallasii are subsp. turcicus from SE. TR. and fron Syria!! The other are ok.pallasii subsp. pallasii. C. pallasii subsp. dispathaceus is an edndemic to TR. fron inner south Anatolia.

The first five all are pictured in one small spot, between ruins of Ariasos, apr. on 1 ha. Dispathaceus is plant from N Syria, too - see Fl. of Turkey, v.8, p.433; B. Mathew. The Crocus, p. 55. and Kerndorf & Pasche publications in AGS Bulletin with photo (vol.64, p.308). They are not subsp. turcicus, regardless of style color. Syrian plant comes from Archibald seeds, Turkish specimen from Gothenburg BG.
Janis